Formula One - 2018

m4ff3w said:

We had fun at USGP

So how heavy is that wheel? :)

In reply to codrus :

~25lbs?

In reply to 759NRNG :

I think as Keith Tanner said. Any other team would be better. Max would still act out some but at RB they encourage the behavior. I think like Hamilton he needs to have an outlet and if they allow him to go crazy off the track he won't feel too stifled. Force India to me seems to have the culture he would like. Or HAAS actually. I think Sauber and Williams would be the next best. 

Ocon’s in-car video

Along with pit and driver commentary from both teams.

I already knew it was Max, but this confirms it for me.  Interesting to note that Ocon had the next place down to him just behind Hamilton, so he just couldn’t back off, as it would put him into a fight for position.

In reply to racerfink :

Thanks for finding that.  VERY interesting, especially considering the source, since Ocon was penalized when Max wasn't.  To see Ocon close on Max like that was fascinating, seeing that does illustrate that Max should have just let him by.  Heck, he even saw it, noted that it was closing, and got confirmation from the team.  There was no reason to fight that.

alfadriver said:

In reply to racerfink :

Thanks for finding that.  VERY interesting, especially considering the source, since Ocon was penalized when Max wasn't.  To see Ocon close on Max like that was fascinating, seeing that does illustrate that Max should have just let him by.  Heck, he even saw it, noted that it was closing, and got confirmation from the team.  There was no reason to fight that.

But:  Let me start by saying I think Max was a bit dumb, but I can easily see why he wouldn't want to let Ocon by, because he would have had to chase him down and re-pass him five laps later when the tires equalized.

All Max did wrong was assume that Ocon was gonna give him the corner.  Ocon did nothing wrong, except assume Max was going to give him room in the corner.  Just one of those racing deals.  Max lost his win, Ocon lost his chance to catch a point, which would have helped him catch up to his team mate in the points.

E36 M3 happens.

I think there's an argument to be made that race leaders should be shown blue flags for genuinely faster lapped cars that want to pass to unlap themselves.  Sure, it doesn't happen very often, but it's the same logic as the other way around -- you're not in a race with that guy, you're only encountering him on the track because of the way lapping works, and the courteous and fair thing to do is let him by.

It's easy to dismiss this sort of thing when people are fighting over 12th place, but imagine a situation in which the leader has lapped the field but is now nursing a damaged car to the finish.  2nd and 3rd are battling for position, and come up on the leader a lap down.  2nd is the same team as the leader, so he lets him by, then blocks the guy in 3rd to help out his teammate.  Is that fair?  Given the precedent of the penalty that Ocon got, I think it's legal.

In reply to codrus :

So here's a real situation that I wonder how to deal with if the front cars need to limp home...

Recall that Ricciardo limped a very slow car home at Monaco.  But none of the other front runners were capable of passing him, thanks to some nifty race craft.

So if cars that have been lapped come up on them, then what?

In concept, I fully agree that slow leaders should be given a blue flag, but it's likely to be a very situational procedure.

I'm a simple man. To me, the blue flag means "there is a faster car behind you and you're not fighting it for position, get out of the way". I don't care if the car is a lap down. If it's faster, you do not impede it unnecessarily. Sure, you might have to pass it later if you get faster or it gets slower, but at the moment the flag is being thrown you are acting as a roadblock.

alfadriver said:

In reply to codrus :

So here's a real situation that I wonder how to deal with if the front cars need to limp home...

Recall that Ricciardo limped a very slow car home at Monaco.  But none of the other front runners were capable of passing him, thanks to some nifty race craft.

So if cars that have been lapped come up on them, then what?

In concept, I fully agree that slow leaders should be given a blue flag, but it's likely to be a very situational procedure.

In principle, it's no different from the leaders coming up on a pair of backmarkers battling it out for 11th and 12th.

Keith Tanner said:

I'm a simple man. To me, the blue flag means "there is a faster car behind you and you're not fighting it for position, get out of the way". I don't care if the car is a lap down. If it's faster, you do not impede it unnecessarily. Sure, you might have to pass it later if you get faster or it gets slower, but at the moment the flag is being thrown you are acting as a roadblock.

So if the back markers quickly come up to the top 3 cars, because the leader is badly holding things up- what do you do?

codrus said:

alfadriver said:

In reply to codrus :

So here's a real situation that I wonder how to deal with if the front cars need to limp home...

Recall that Ricciardo limped a very slow car home at Monaco.  But none of the other front runners were capable of passing him, thanks to some nifty race craft.

So if cars that have been lapped come up on them, then what?

In concept, I fully agree that slow leaders should be given a blue flag, but it's likely to be a very situational procedure.

 

In principle, it's no different from the leaders coming up on a pair of backmarkers battling it out for 11th and 12th.

So the back markers can pass all of the leaders?  Even if one car is going slow?

alfadriver said:

Keith Tanner said:

I'm a simple man. To me, the blue flag means "there is a faster car behind you and you're not fighting it for position, get out of the way". I don't care if the car is a lap down. If it's faster, you do not impede it unnecessarily. Sure, you might have to pass it later if you get faster or it gets slower, but at the moment the flag is being thrown you are acting as a roadblock.

So if the back markers quickly come up to the top 3 cars, because the leader is badly holding things up- what do you do?

You give the slower cars a blue flag. If that happens to be the top 3 cars, then that's the penalty they pay for going slower than other cars on the track. Don't want to get passed by back markers? Drive faster than them! If the leader's holding you up, then pass him too 

I guess the question is - if you get lapped, are you lapped forever? Or are you allowed to unlap yourself? If you're allowed to unlap, then the slower cars on a different lap should certainly have to give way.

It was a bad deal for both drivers but if I was Max I wouldn't have just let him by either.

 Not defending Max at all but with the areo wash these days he would more then likely have demo'd the tires following/trying to get by a few laps later and coming under drs pressure from Hammy.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

I'm just reminding people of the actual situation at Monaco this year.  And I doubt anyone will obey a blue flag if you are in the top 3, all covering 1-2 seconds.

For sure, I'm fine with back markers unlapping themselves.  It's just that there are situations that are not easy to call.

Maybe there is a certain amount of Max listening to other people (Lewis) (Media). "These berkeleyers know I'm crazy, so they will give me the corner."

Didn't work this time...

kevlarcorolla said:

 Not defending Max at all but with the areo wash these days he would more then likely have demo'd the tires following/trying to get by a few laps later and coming under drs pressure from Hammy.

Huh?  If he'd caught up to Ocon a few laps later, he would have been the leader coming up to lap Ocon, so Ocon would have gotten a blue flag. No demoing of tires required.

Verstappen was in no danger of Hamilton catching up, he was in cruise mode and protecting the car/tires/etc for the win.  Hamilton didn't have the pace.  Hell, even after driving into Ocon and damaging his aero, Verstappen was STILL faster than Hamilton, just not by enough to retake the lead.

alfadriver said:

In reply to Keith Tanner :

I'm just reminding people of the actual situation at Monaco this year.  And I doubt anyone will obey a blue flag if you are in the top 3, all covering 1-2 seconds.

You get something like half a lap to obey a blue flag, and if you ignore it longer than that they start throwing penalties.

In reply to codrus :

So Hamilton, stuck in 3rd place, and Vettel in 2nd would get a blue flag because they can't pass Ricciardo, who was limping his damaged car to the end?  And all three would get penalties?  There's no question that Vettel and Hamilton were faster than all of the back markers- but Ricciardo drove a great race to keep them behind.  (ignoring Kimi and Valteri- who were also right there)

When giving them a blue flag, how do you prevent one of them going by Ricciardo when he gets the blue flag?

alfadriver said:

In reply to codrus :

So Hamilton, stuck in 3rd place, and Vettel in 2nd would get a blue flag because they can't pass Ricciardo, who was limping his damaged car to the end?  And all three would get penalties?  There's no question that Vettel and Hamilton were faster than all of the back markers- but Ricciardo drove a great race to keep them behind.  (ignoring Kimi and Valteri- who were also right there)

When giving them a blue flag, how do you prevent one of them going by Ricciardo when he gets the blue flag?

I'm lost about the scenario you're proposing.  In the one I proposed, the leader would get a blue flag to allow both the (lapped) 2nd and 3rd place cars past in order to unlap themselves.  The 2nd and 3rd place cars would not get blue flags unless they themselves were blocking cars yet another lap down who were moving even faster.

As for preventing other drivers from passing when you obey the blue flag, the rules don't address it.  They're supposed to be the best drivers in the world, let them sort it out.  That's how it works today if the leader comes up to a pair of backmarkers who are battling for a non-points position.

In reply to codrus :

Other than the lack of back markers trying to pass, the scenario happened.  Remember at Monaco this year, Ricciado had a power unit problem that increased his lap times a huge amount- IIRC, well over 2 seconds slower than what he should have been able to do- which is well within the back marker speed.  And he held up the top 5 cars for a huge part of the race.  But thanks to it being Monaco- nobody could pass, as he figured out how to use the track to defend his car problems.

The 2nd and 3rd place cars were not fighting to unlap, but to take the lead.  

And in that situation, it's pretty easy to see the possibility of a back marker coming up on that leading pack. 

Other than the car not coming up to unlap itself- this actually happened.  So IF a car came up to unlap itself from the leaders, and they are exactly how Monaco 2018 laid out, what happens?  Do you REALLY think that the car a lap down should be allowed to pass the top 5 cars just because it's faster than the leader?

I don't think anything needs to change with the blue flag rules or usage.  What needs to change is the aero rules so the blue flags aren't needed as much.  It's nuts that the following car is being affected  by the leading car once within three seconds on some circuits.  I so not support, nor am I advocating in any way doing this, but one advantage or an inverted or semi random grid is that teams would have to design cars to follow and pass if they knew there was a 50:50 chance that their pole position would mean they started last.  As I say, not a fan, don't want it, it's just a point.  Next years regs are supposed to change the front wings, barge boards etc. to help, but it wont be a complete panacea.  I love the in car link Racerfink posted.  It really show how per the letter of the rules Ocon was in the wrong, but in the reality of the situation Max has no one but himself to blame.

alfadriver said:

Do you REALLY think that the car a lap down should be allowed to pass the top 5 cars just because it's faster than the leader?

Yes. They’re not fighting the same fight. 

Keith Tanner said:

alfadriver said:

Do you REALLY think that the car a lap down should be allowed to pass the top 5 cars just because it's faster than the leader?

Yes. They’re not fighting the same fight. 

So how do you prevent 2-5 from taking advantage of that blue flag and passing the leader under false reasons?  I'm not sure that impacting who wins the race because you are letting back markers by is a good thing.  

Again, race craft kept Ricciado in front.  But letting back markers by would eliminate that race craft, and prevent a pretty amazing win with bad hardware.  

Y'all realize you're making up a bunch of hypothetical edge cases to make you point, right?

F1 has been this way for decades. Are there some things that could be done? Of course. Are they going to do them? Maybe, but we will keep watching.