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Advan046
Advan046 UltraDork
2/16/20 11:56 p.m.

I am excited to see how Ocon compares to Ricciardo. 

Williams Williams Williams I hope and pray that those guys show up strong. 

spacecadet
spacecadet SuperDork
2/20/20 10:19 a.m.

THe Mercedes DAS system to control front toe is pretty slick. 

I'm really curious to understand how they think it's legal. 

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.new-das-steering-wheel-system-legal-and-safe-insist-mercedes.6pSo0iDVCZ0HBdcz2MvMPd.html

 

wvumtnbkr
wvumtnbkr UberDork
2/20/20 10:22 a.m.

Why wouldn't it be legal?

 

It directly controls the angle of the front wheels.  Isn't that what any steering wheel does?devil

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
2/20/20 10:39 a.m.

Just came here to post that. If it's controlling toe, it seems they are reverting it back 0 on the straights for less drag. I assume typically there is quite a bit of toe out on these cars?

spacecadet
spacecadet SuperDork
2/20/20 10:46 a.m.

In reply to wvumtnbkr :

Specifically making changes to the front suspension while the car is in motion. Changing toe on the fly is changing the front suspension in my eye. But it appears it is not in the FIA's if this is really deemed legal. 

I am curious how it's done as well, although i have a few ideas. I'm suspecting it's hydraulic actuation. But will be curious to see when it eventually comes to light. 

spacecadet
spacecadet SuperDork
2/20/20 10:48 a.m.

In reply to z31maniac :

Yes, bunch of toe out. 

It means you have the front tires being works that much less since they're not in any slip Angle going down the straightaway. Allows for better life and should also help the outer edge the most. 

 

bentwrench
bentwrench SuperDork
2/20/20 10:55 a.m.

I'm sure you mean the inner edges of the front tires, as they use toe out to make the cars turn responsively and the camber in the fronts puts the inner edge on the track going straight. 

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
2/20/20 10:58 a.m.
spacecadet said:

In reply to z31maniac :

Yes, bunch of toe out. 

It means you have the front tires being works that much less since they're not in any slip Angle going down the straightaway. Allows for better life and should also help the outer edge the most. 

 

I would think it would help the inner edge the most? With toe out the inside of the tire is "first" down the road, right?

wvumtnbkr
wvumtnbkr UberDork
2/20/20 11:08 a.m.

I read a few articles on this.  They all said outside edge.  

 

When you have bad toe settings on a street car which part get a chewed up?  I honestly don't know.

 

I would argue that they aren't making changes to the front suspension.  They are making changes to the steering system.

spacecadet
spacecadet SuperDork
2/20/20 11:27 a.m.

In reply to wvumtnbkr :

On a street car the inside edge is getting murdered with toe out. 

 

Javelin
Javelin MegaDork
2/20/20 11:29 a.m.

It's ingenious!

spacecadet
spacecadet SuperDork
2/20/20 12:51 p.m.

Really solid loophole Mercedes found to run the DAS system. 

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/fia-mercedes-das-system-is-legal/4689414/

Because the front wheels are already able to adjust alignment relative to the chassis with the steering. Then they are free to do this as well.

 

 

 

MotorsportsGordon
MotorsportsGordon HalfDork
2/20/20 1:06 p.m.

My prediction is mercedes and Hamilton again however just like las year Toto Wolff and the entire british media will claim that mercedes don't have te best car etc in their continuous further making Hamilton bigger and better then he is. Not that he isant a great driver but they go out of their way to trash any other driver that isant british.

joeg1982
joeg1982 New Reader
2/20/20 1:59 p.m.

If DAS survives protests, it will not be long before someone tries it on the back wheels--imparting toe-out in the turns to make the car oversteer.

 

This is a real can of worms and reminds me of McLaren's"fiddle brake" system.

06HHR
06HHR Dork
2/20/20 2:05 p.m.

In reply to joeg1982 :

Don't thank that's going to happen, the motorsport.com article does a good job of explaining it. Only two wheels can steer the car.

Article 10.4.1 of the technical regulations states: "Any steering system which permits the re-alignment of more than two wheels is not permitted."

Tom_Spangler
Tom_Spangler PowerDork
2/20/20 3:35 p.m.
Javelin said:

It's ingenious!

It really is. IMO, this is something to be appauded. We don't get much innovation in racing these days.

rob_lewis
rob_lewis UltraDork
2/20/20 3:41 p.m.
Tom_Spangler said:
Javelin said:

It's ingenious!

It really is. IMO, this is something to be appauded. We don't get much innovation in racing these days.

Agreed.  And I could see it transitioning to production cars too.  An automated system that triggers off of cruise control (for example) that brings toe and maybe camber in a bit to reduce tire drag and increase MPG's.  Assuming that if you're in cruise, you're pretty much only going straight, so more toe and/or camber aren't as critical.

I also realized that this not only gives them better straightline speed (and reduced tire wear), they could actually introduce more toe into the turns as opposed to trying to find a balance between the straights and corners. 

-Rob

Advan046
Advan046 UltraDork
2/20/20 5:48 p.m.

Hopefully we will see the DAS system in Bahrain or Vietnam. I think they both have decent straight sections.

It would get interesting once they start going wheel to wheel. As a driver  at Hamilton's and Bottas' levels they may be able to race another car into a corner and not accidentally activate the DAS but we will have to wait and see.

Otherwise I hope Williams is as mid pack as they seem. And wonder if HAAS is as far down as they seem. 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
2/20/20 6:11 p.m.

I think Hamilton could handle it. What would be fun would be Vettel losing his cool and hammering on the column right when he turns into Eau Rouge. 

loosecannon
loosecannon SuperDork
2/21/20 11:35 a.m.

I love the innovation of the DAS system but it makes me really angry when the FIA bans things like this, like they did with the mass damper or the F duct. These kinds of innovations are wonderful and not even that costly. Formula 1 cars are not even as sophisticated as a new Mazda so when someone comes up with something super cool, they should be allowed to keep it. The rule book needs to get smaller, not bigger. Yes, yes, people will say it's about cost cutting but a clever simplifying of the rules would cut costs, too. 

spacecadet
spacecadet SuperDork
2/21/20 10:11 p.m.

In reply to loosecannon :

it takes teams of people to chase these ideas. Ross and the technical group are trying to curtail spiraling upward costs in F1 and I applaud them for it. More spec parts in the cars to curtail chasing minimal gains with huge costs associated is going to help the sport. 

if you want an example of how these tighter rulebooks make things much more cost effective. look at what Core was able to do with a team of less than a dozen people in 2018 in IMSA DPi. 

now i don't think your opinion is going to change, so my point doesn't really matter. 

I want to see the best racing, i want to see refueling come back among so many other things. That's what i care about, bring back the strategy battles. we've started to see some differences in the past few years. 

had DAS come at time when we were not trying to changeover into the next gen f1 cars. then it might not have gotten banned. But having teams trying to develop this years car to stay in the championship, and next years car to start 2021 on the right foot. DAS was an unnecessary complication heading into 2021 IMHO. 

 

codrus
codrus UberDork
2/22/20 12:09 a.m.
loosecannon said:

I love the innovation of the DAS system but it makes me really angry when the FIA bans things like this, like they did with the mass damper or the F duct. These kinds of innovations are wonderful and not even that costly. Formula 1 cars are not even as sophisticated as a new Mazda so when someone comes up with something super cool, they should be allowed to keep it. The rule book needs to get smaller, not bigger. Yes, yes, people will say it's about cost cutting but a clever simplifying of the rules would cut costs, too. 

 

The cost isn't in the F-duct system itself, it's in the design, simulation, and testing of it.  There were also some significant questions about the safety of it -- in order to work around the "no movable aerodynamic device" rule, the drivers had to cover the duct with one hand while driving down the straight, meaning that they only had one hand on the wheel.  That's... not ideal.

 

Javelin
Javelin MegaDork
2/22/20 12:22 a.m.
codrus said:
loosecannon said:

I love the innovation of the DAS system but it makes me really angry when the FIA bans things like this, like they did with the mass damper or the F duct. These kinds of innovations are wonderful and not even that costly. Formula 1 cars are not even as sophisticated as a new Mazda so when someone comes up with something super cool, they should be allowed to keep it. The rule book needs to get smaller, not bigger. Yes, yes, people will say it's about cost cutting but a clever simplifying of the rules would cut costs, too. 

 

The cost isn't in the F-duct system itself, it's in the design, simulation, and testing of it.  There were also some significant questions about the safety of it -- in order to work around the "no movable aerodynamic device" rule, the drivers had to cover the duct with one hand while driving down the straight, meaning that they only had one hand on the wheel.  That's... not ideal.

 

Conversely, drivers spent the first 50-odd years in F1 driving with one hand on the wheel because the cars were manual transmissions.

spacecadet
spacecadet SuperDork
2/22/20 9:37 a.m.
Javelin said:
codrus said:
loosecannon said:

I love the innovation of the DAS system but it makes me really angry when the FIA bans things like this, like they did with the mass damper or the F duct. These kinds of innovations are wonderful and not even that costly. Formula 1 cars are not even as sophisticated as a new Mazda so when someone comes up with something super cool, they should be allowed to keep it. The rule book needs to get smaller, not bigger. Yes, yes, people will say it's about cost cutting but a clever simplifying of the rules would cut costs, too. 

 

The cost isn't in the F-duct system itself, it's in the design, simulation, and testing of it.  There were also some significant questions about the safety of it -- in order to work around the "no movable aerodynamic device" rule, the drivers had to cover the duct with one hand while driving down the straight, meaning that they only had one hand on the wheel.  That's... not ideal.

 

Conversely, drivers spent the first 50-odd years in F1 driving with one hand on the wheel because the cars were manual transmissions.

The real issue was when it was effectively NO hands. IE the video of Alonso holding the wheel with fingertips of left hand going down the straight changing settings with his right hand. 

loosecannon
loosecannon SuperDork
2/22/20 1:38 p.m.

My point is that if the FIA is going to squash any innovation, what are we doing here? Let's just go the Indy Car route and have cookie cutter cars

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