Lewis is basically racing against himself at this point. It was striking how slow the Haas cars were considering they started the day with a great strategic move to put them in the top four, only to end up at the back of the mid pack. All this on a track that's tough to pass on.
In reply to ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) :
Haas is very much stuck with Ferrari's mistakes. Obviously the powertrain problems that Ferrari has done over the years... But sicne Haas also gets the suspension- they have to use the same general concept- including the rake angle of the car. So if Ferrari has problems with that, generally Haas will be just a little worse with it. That, and if Ferrari's aero problem is traced to a correlation problem in the tunnel- Haas also uses that.
Lest we forget, much of the consternation of Racing Point was laid down on Haas for looking identical to previous Ferraris.
It will be interesting to see what happens for the ground effects chassis- recalling that Dallara has many years of ground effects aero data with all of their indycar experience.
In reply to alfadriver (Forum Supporter) :
The fact that there's no venturi channel currently is crazy to me given how insanely fast these cars are (in clean air). Imagine how fast the cars could be!!
The tires are probably limiting everything too. You can't even use the softer compounds they degrade so fast. We could use a real tire war again.
Regarding "cheating" here is what Ross Brawn has to say about it. I also read another article about how Racing Point (and all the teams) employ photographers to provide THOUSANDS of pictures cars which they can then try to identify and use the succesful comments.
https://us.motorsport.com/f1/news/brawn-racing-point-protest-renault/4840957/
So, let's say I no longer have cable and for the first three races this season I've only watched the highlights after the fact on YouTube. Is there an easy way to be able to watch the races in the US that is legal? Are they streamed on some ESPN app or something? I don't have a VPN or anything like that.
In reply to T.J. :
They should be- I've watched them in the past that way. (the ESPN app, I mean). May have to subscribe to ESPN+ if you don't have a cable subscription.
They are indeed streamed on an ESPN app although you may need a cable/satellite login to get it. You can also sign up for whatever the current F1 TV offering is.
As for the cheating - apparently Renault is protesting the brake ducts specifically because you cannot copy the interior design from photographs. That makes sense. But if it was a legal part last year, this seems foolish. At worst, Racing Point will just keep using the same obsolete part until it's a liability. At best, they'll use the familiar design as a starting point for continual evolution which seems legit to me. Expecting them to come up with a clean sheet design that looks different despite the fact that the physics is the same is ridiculous.
ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) said:Lewis is basically racing against himself at this point. It was striking how slow the Haas cars were considering they started the day with a great strategic move to put them in the top four, only to end up at the back of the mid pack. All this on a track that's tough to pass on.
That didn't look like a track that was tough to pass on. There were some decent passes, far more than you see in the Monaco parade.
Keith Tanner said:
As for the cheating - apparently Renault is protesting the brake ducts specifically because you cannot copy the interior design from photographs. That makes sense. But if it was a legal part last year, this seems foolish. At worst, Racing Point will just keep using the same obsolete part until it's a liability. At best, they'll use the familiar design as a starting point for continual evolution which seems legit to me. Expecting them to come up with a clean sheet design that looks different despite the fact that the physics is the same is ridiculous.
I'm a bit curious how Renault knows what the inside of a Mercedes brake duct looks like, and how they are comparing it to the inside of a Racing Point brake duct. The inlet is a pretty good copy, but the inside is a secret...
Keith Tanner said:That didn't look like a track that was tough to pass on. There were some decent passes, far more than you see in the Monaco parade.
DRS has a much bigger effect at the Hungaroring than it does at Monaco. Previous to that, the term "Monaco without the houses" was pretty apt. Even with DRS it's still much harder to pass on than other tracks -- Bottas would have easily gotten past Verstappen in Austria, for example.
Streetwiseguy said:Keith Tanner said:
As for the cheating - apparently Renault is protesting the brake ducts specifically because you cannot copy the interior design from photographs. That makes sense. But if it was a legal part last year, this seems foolish. At worst, Racing Point will just keep using the same obsolete part until it's a liability. At best, they'll use the familiar design as a starting point for continual evolution which seems legit to me. Expecting them to come up with a clean sheet design that looks different despite the fact that the physics is the same is ridiculous.
I'm a bit curious how Renault knows what the inside of a Mercedes brake duct looks like, and how they are comparing it to the inside of a Racing Point brake duct. The inlet is a pretty good copy, but the inside is a secret...
Either they are betting on it, or they really want to clarify the obvious- that copying is legal. The only time it has not been is when it was taken to a British court, and in this case, Mercedes would have to make a claim against IP infringement.
alfadriver (Forum Supporter) said:And now because they copied Mercedes so close, everyone is bashing them.... IMHO, it's more like- what took so long?
Exactly my thoughts since testing. They stated they wanted to walk away from the Newey mantra when they were Force India but didn't have the money. Once Stroll locked in with cash they made the change and with the high torque deployment (I read that but don't know the numbers, more initial torque than a V10? IDK) from the turbo era it was just the right move for them. Even if they used the HAAS shopping cart model of getting there, why not? Everyone buys the McLaren ECU and there are only what two brake suppliers? and the wings and other bits they still have to design around their car body.
Williams should have done the same immediately after they fired Paddy Lowe. They had the money to probably make the change then devote engineering to the 2021 (now 2022) car. Not a bad move to stick to your principles of maximum in house design but not a winning move by Mr Williams for his team.
alfadriver (Forum Supporter) said:Streetwiseguy said:Keith Tanner said:
As for the cheating - apparently Renault is protesting the brake ducts specifically because you cannot copy the interior design from photographs. That makes sense. But if it was a legal part last year, this seems foolish. At worst, Racing Point will just keep using the same obsolete part until it's a liability. At best, they'll use the familiar design as a starting point for continual evolution which seems legit to me. Expecting them to come up with a clean sheet design that looks different despite the fact that the physics is the same is ridiculous.
I'm a bit curious how Renault knows what the inside of a Mercedes brake duct looks like, and how they are comparing it to the inside of a Racing Point brake duct. The inlet is a pretty good copy, but the inside is a secret...
Either they are betting on it, or they really want to clarify the obvious- that copying is legal. The only time it has not been is when it was taken to a British court, and in this case, Mercedes would have to make a claim against IP infringement.
The brake ducts seemed an odd target of the protest because I don't see how Renault could win. Just as Ross Brawn said in the article. If you can buy a part for your race car in 2019. You do that you buy it and use it. That isn't copying that is buying a part. Now in 2020 they say well you have can no longer buy x part. Does that mean you throw away everything about the part you bought? If it is part of the aero system on the car it would be difficult to just change it just to make it look different and not have the change the rest of the car. Now you may optimize it for your 2020 car by moving a curve here or there or changing the internal air flow to cool the wheel a little more than the 19 version. But in no way can Renault expect them to not use information from X part they bought in 2019.
^Exactly, it's not like you suddenly lose your knowledge of a working concept.
Impressive race. My take aways:
Finally, Lewis Hamilton is cruising...and that is scary that he isn't even trying to get track race lap records. I think Max's performance today showed why, like Bottas, he would not be able to beat Hamilton. Just makes too many mistakes. But as he matures, maybe.
I fear Albon will unneccessarily get cut out of RedBull. I think he is fitting RB better than Gasly but the car is a wreck. He keeps showing pace on Sunday's and almost podiumed two races if not for Hamilton taking him off....
Oh and I kept trying to remember this article but it speaks to the copy the best mentality of F1 and everything else us humans do.
Advan046 said:Oh and I kept trying to remember this article but it speaks to the copy the best mentality of F1 and everything else us humans do.
Given the low speed benefit that the article suggests- it's interesting that Red Bull has not gotten that benefit at all. This car was supposed to be better in slow corners, but they are struggling to get it to consistently balance. The narrow nose should have helped out, but it just seems harder to drive.
Streetwiseguy said:Keith Tanner said:
As for the cheating - apparently Renault is protesting the brake ducts specifically because you cannot copy the interior design from photographs. That makes sense. But if it was a legal part last year, this seems foolish. At worst, Racing Point will just keep using the same obsolete part until it's a liability. At best, they'll use the familiar design as a starting point for continual evolution which seems legit to me. Expecting them to come up with a clean sheet design that looks different despite the fact that the physics is the same is ridiculous.
I'm a bit curious how Renault knows what the inside of a Mercedes brake duct looks like, and how they are comparing it to the inside of a Racing Point brake duct. The inlet is a pretty good copy, but the inside is a secret...
I think it's a matter of "we sure think they're the same from the outside, so show the inside and prove they're not the same!". Or have an independent third party do a side-by-side analysis. But that's the proof, if the invisible private parts are the same, it's came from having access to the drawings.
At least, that's the justification they gave last week. But that doesn't mention they weren't a listed part last year, which really changes things. If RP could (and did) use the Mercedes design last year, then you can't seriously expect them to start over. Like I mentioned earlier, they're now obsolete. You can bet Mercedes 2020 has moved on.
If Racing Point did copy the 2019 Merc (they probably did) then they really need to make the most of these first number of races as I feel their ability to develop the car throughout the season will be limited compared to Redbull, Ferrari and Mclaren. I think as the season rolls on their pace will remain pretty steady while some of the others will catch up and surpass them. With the 2021 car being pushed back a year and these cars being used for another season there is a lot of incentive to keep pushing (to be first runners up to Lewis and the Benz 
).
I'd really like to see George move up to the Mercedes next season, hopefully he can get more experience actually racing in the Williams this year and prove himself. Bottas has proved to be a decent number 2 but I think George could do the job just as well with more potential to be a future champion when Lewis hangs up the helmet. Of course everyone is saying right now that Bottas will still be there for 2021 but nothing official yet.
Haas penalized 10 seconds for calling their drivers in before the race- https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.magnussen-and-grosjean-demoted-one-place-each-after-post-race-time-penalties.68eIgefxYp9xYWOvKkJh9A.html#:~:text=Haas%20drivers%20Kevin%20Magnussen%20and,breach%20of%20the%20sporting%20regulations.
Both drivers ended up losing a spot.
Which explains why Alpha Tauri was very silent to Kvyat.
Totally insane penalty.
In reply to alfadriver (Forum Supporter) :
Wait what? Why the bleep is that even a rule?!?
adam525i (Forum Supporter) said:
I'd really like to see George move up to the Mercedes next season, hopefully he can get more experience actually racing in the Williams this year and prove himself. Bottas has proved to be a decent number 2 but I think George could do the job just as well with more potential to be a future champion when Lewis hangs up the helmet. Of course everyone is saying right now that Bottas will still be there for 2021 but nothing official yet.
I forget the exact wording, but Toto said something post race along the lines of, "We are very happy with our driver lineup because neither one of them is a whiney little bitch and they seem to get along, unlike some years in the past, when it was a giant pain in the ass."
I'm paraphrasing.
Javelin (Forum Supporter) said:In reply to alfadriver (Forum Supporter) :
Wait what? Why the bleep is that even a rule?!?
I suspect it goes back to the clutch set up rules that were banned a few years ago. Reading the article, there are exceptions, but Haas could not show that this fell under either of those. Kvyat asked many times to do the same thing, and did not get an answer, remember.
I wonder if they didn't explain why- just "box, box.." it would have been better. But both drivers got the clear explanation of why- which it sounds like driver aids.
I bet if the drivers came in on their own, it would have been different.
Streetwiseguy said:adam525i (Forum Supporter) said:
I'd really like to see George move up to the Mercedes next season, hopefully he can get more experience actually racing in the Williams this year and prove himself. Bottas has proved to be a decent number 2 but I think George could do the job just as well with more potential to be a future champion when Lewis hangs up the helmet. Of course everyone is saying right now that Bottas will still be there for 2021 but nothing official yet.
I forget the exact wording, but Toto said something post race along the lines of, "We are very happy with our driver lineup because neither one of them is a whiney little bitch and they seem to get along, unlike some years in the past, when it was a giant pain in the ass."
I'm paraphrasing.
IMHO, George more than fits into that profie. He's clearly got talent, and even clearer that Williams has given him crap. But he does not whine about it at all.
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