1 2
Appleseed
Appleseed MegaDork
1/2/19 1:58 a.m.
HunterJP said:
NOHOME said:

In reply to bcp2011 :

They have not heard the final word on that subject matter of wanting to charge full pop on doing the plug change.  I think its five or six hundred canuck bucks for that job on its own.

Agreed that a lot of things need to go right so that this does not create more trouble. I am on record as claiming that the flat four is s ridiculous design and this does nothing to change my mind. 

 

 

Pete

I dunno. That layout seems to have worked out ok for them Porsche folks..  :shrug:

Porsche? Hell, just ask Cessna.

Appleseed
Appleseed MegaDork
1/2/19 2:02 a.m.
NOHOME said:

Not saying the Subaru Kludge is a BAD engine, but it is a silly thing if you stop and think of it from an elegant desigh standpoint.

 

4 cyls  so lets go with  4 cams.  yeah good idea why not.

4 cyls so yeah, lets use two cylinder heads...  yeah good idea. And two head gaskets, just in case one does not fail

DOHC...lets use rockers, cause that adds more parts. I know, technically they are followers, but are they really needed?

How about we double up on them cam phasor timing things, cause yeah that adds more stuff to fail

Just in case..lets really get em rolling in the aisles...Wait for it...TWO fuel injection systems!  Ironically, and I assume unexpectedly, this does have the benefit of saving this engine from the DI dirty valve syndrome. Put that down to serendipity.

 

Then...while they are laughing, lets make spark plug changes an engine out job!!!!

And lets make it sound like a flatulent platipus!

 

Toyota really needs to cut Subaru out of the picture on this chassis and put a real engine in the car. Figure a nice 2.5l straight four would do the  job just fine. 

 

Would it make more sense if all that was on, say...a Ford V-8?

rslifkin
rslifkin UltraDork
1/2/19 7:52 a.m.

In reply to mainlandboy :

Tilting an inline engine a bit to the side to get a lower hood line isn't unheard of.  Heck, in the transit bus world it's not unheard of to build an inline engine built to be laid flat on its side...

bcp2011
bcp2011 Reader
1/2/19 1:46 p.m.

In reply to Appleseed :

The length of the engine matters, so for a V8 it's not because the engineers wants a double set of everything, but because an inline 8 isn't practical.  In this instance, an inline 4 would fit fine.  

Carbon
Carbon UltraDork
1/2/19 4:15 p.m.
MrChaos said:
NOHOME said:

 

Toyota really needs to cut Subaru out of the picture on this chassis and put a real engine in the car. Figure a nice 2.5l straight four would do the  job just fine. 

 

Like the 8AR-FTS which is a 2.0 turbo that is in the Lexus IS/GS 200t 175 kW (235 hp) at 4,800 - 5,600 rpm and 350 N⋅m (258 lb⋅ft) at 1,650 - 4000 rpm. Its already a brand engine in a rwd chassis.

I'll take a 2gr in mine. 

iceracer
iceracer UltimaDork
1/2/19 4:57 p.m.

Water cooled opposed engines are not new.    Borgward buit one for the Goliath/Hansa 1100.

Knurled.
Knurled. MegaDork
1/2/19 6:50 p.m.
NOHOME said:

Not saying the Subaru Kludge is a BAD engine, but it is a silly thing if you stop and think of it from an elegant desigh standpoint.

 

4 cyls  so lets go with  4 cams.  yeah good idea why not.

4 cyls so yeah, lets use two cylinder heads...  yeah good idea. And two head gaskets, just in case one does not fail

DOHC...lets use rockers, cause that adds more parts. I know, technically they are followers, but are they really needed?

How about we double up on them cam phasor timing things, cause yeah that adds more stuff to fail

Just in case..lets really get em rolling in the aisles...Wait for it...TWO fuel injection systems!  Ironically, and I assume unexpectedly, this does have the benefit of saving this engine from the DI dirty valve syndrome. Put that down to serendipity.

 

Then...while they are laughing, lets make spark plug changes an engine out job!!!!

And lets make it sound like a flatulent platipus!

 

Toyota really needs to cut Subaru out of the picture on this chassis and put a real engine in the car. Figure a nice 2.5l straight four would do the  job just fine. 

 

 

Practically all engines have variable cam timing on every individual camshaft.  This is nothing new.  Cams without phasers is about like a points distributor on the off-the-back scale.

 

You do not need to have the engine out to change spark plugs.

 

Almost everyone is using followers now instead of buckets.  You can get a lot more valve acceleration with a rocker (follower) than a bucket, which is limited by the bucket diameter and the fact that it is fixed at a 1:1 lobe lift/valve lift ratio.  You also drop idle friction with a roller, and separate followers/HLAs makes the cylinder head design a lot simpler, as well as making assembly easier.  At a guess, it also will either increase RPM capability or reduce required valve spring tension (or both!), since the HLA is "unsprung weight" and all that is moving is half of the follower, which is a lot lighter than a bucket, all of which which means reduced friction, and weaker spring required means less beating up of the seat so the valves stay sealed longer, and you can use a thinner valve stem, which means more flow and ultimately more power.

 

Toyota/Subaru are not the only people to run dual fuel injection, either, and I predict we will see a lot more of it as manufacturers work harder to eke every bit of out enginesSearch this very forum for the words alfadriver has to say about some of the emissions difficulties that direct injection has (NOx and soot, IIRC) and why adding a couple rails and some injectors gives you the best of both worlds for very little expense. 

 

Historically, Subaru's choice of a boxer is a good one, chassis-dynamics wise.  They were always in front engined front wheel drive vehicles, and a boxer layout allowed them to place the transmission's mass behind the axle centerline, leading to a lower polar moment of inertia.  They later exploited this to start making 4WD and AWD vehicles using largely the same components, and the polar moment got even better compared to transverse AWD layouts.  As far as how it works out for Toyota...  IIRC the FR-S/BR-Z chassis is largely a Subaru affair anyway.  Subaru chassis, Subaru engine.  I think the only "Toyota" part is the transmission, which is an Aisin unit anyway.  I think the main reason why they worked it out with Toyota is to increase production levels.  Notice that the BR-Z had a production cap AND had the "better" chassis tuning.

irish44j
irish44j MegaDork
1/2/19 8:59 p.m.
mainlandboy said:
bcp2011 said:

The other points are fair though... A K engine in this thing would be fantastic.  Though I've had no real issues with my engine I don't find the lower center of gravity to be particularly compelling in going with a flat four.  

Like you, I'd also much prefer to have a high revving inline 4 like the Honda K engine in this car over the flat 4. I'm wondering if the decision to use the Subaru flat 4 arrangement rather than a Toyota inline 4 was more to do with achieving that nice low hood line, and less to do with getting a low CG. Some inline 4 cylinder engines are quite tall, and I think that the look of the car would be compromised if the hood had to be higher to accommodate it

rslifkin said:

In reply to mainlandboy :

Tilting an inline engine a bit to the side to get a lower hood line isn't unheard of.  Heck, in the transit bus world it's not unheard of to build an inline engine built to be laid flat on its side...

Yup. I have two cars with tilted 4-cyls sitting in my garage right now....e30 318 and the 924S. And the 2.5L in the 924S is NOT a small engine, and that car has a lower hood than the frisbee twins. 

Matt
Matt New Reader
1/3/19 8:23 a.m.

In reply to HunterJP :

+1

...and Ferrari, and Continental, and lycoming

Knurled.
Knurled. MegaDork
1/3/19 12:22 p.m.

In reply to irish44j :

Your 944 was designed before pedestrian crash safety standards, so it doesn't need to have crush space over the engine.

 

Remember the thing with the Nissans with explosive hood hinge poppers so they could get a low hoodline and meet crash standards?

dculberson
dculberson UltimaDork
1/3/19 1:25 p.m.

Charging full rate for a spark plug and timing belt when they already have the engine torn down is a complete jerk move.

mtn
mtn MegaDork
1/3/19 1:40 p.m.
dculberson said:

Charging full rate for a spark plug and timing belt when they already have the engine torn down is a complete jerk move.

No kidding. Need to find another dealer, and contact Toyota corporate and start complaining. That is what gives the nickname of stealership.

1 2

You'll need to log in to post.

Our Preferred Partners
lUUJahASk0f8JOHmnAd1PUOqHWV9myGoeijYrIfhoh4rjH21pVctUFRxAnYXFHYU