Future spotted

Lesley wrote: I'm picking up a Lexus 200h tomorrow. I kind of like the look of it, with any luck it will be less boring than most of its siblings.

IMHO- Equally boring, but comfy and stylish while you're...you know...bored.

Teh E36 M3 wrote: Josh- it's not like they were claiming there was no such thing as global warming... just take it easy. Specifically. I don't like the condescending 'tude of your posts. Have a beer and chill, man.

I don't have anything against you, it's the people who willfully publish nonsense under the guise of legitimate science who (now and forever) draw my ire. A lot of people who continue to cite this study are innocently misled by it, and that's really what gets my goat about it. Especially when you can't really explain to someone how ludicrous it is without coming across as a condescending know-it-all or whatever. Or worse, being told that you're biased in the other direction just because you disagree with it. The old "false equivalency" rearing its head. It's not a "differing viewpoint". It's a steaming load of bullE36 M3 disguised as science, that fails the basic tests of legitimacy, and as someone interested in the continued progress of human knowledge, it burns me to see junk science treated as anything otherwise. Sorry if you felt like I was going after you, that wasn't the intent.

Joe Gearin wrote: I see your point that it may not be a silver bullet. The Volt and hybrid technology are steps in the right direction. We have some pretty smart folks designing our cars. The longer this technology has to develop, the better it will get, and the cheaper they will be to produce.

That's kind of my point- I'm not so sure they can become that much cheaper to produce.

Take the Tesla, for instance, one of their selling points is that mass production will save the day for them.... Well, their batteries are aready being mass produced. For computers.

It's possible that the materials used for batteries can be common materials. But right now, they are not. And, one should be quick to point this out, cars would NOT be the only user of this material/technology that is not exacly in abundance. Again, cars already compete for steel and aluminum. But even with massive buildings, and bridges, and ships, and planes being built around the world- there doesn't appear to be a major supply issue with iron ore or bauxite.

Lithium and Nickel are not cheap for a very good reason.

BTW- for those of you who like a challenge for a carreer- there you go. Develop a battery that uses common earth materials. One that it will not be an issue making 500,000,000 cars over 15 years, and still be able to supply batteries for everyone else. (a good alternative is to find a way to make Bauxite into aluminum that doesn't take so much electricity....)

If a recharable can be made from silica, iron, aluminum and a spattering of precious metals, then we are talking.

I think the market place will sort it all out. Or not.

In reply to Josh: Thanks dude. I didn't mean to get all sensitive on you. We'll hug it out next time you're in town

Our friendly Ford representative isolates the key point to the future of Hybrids - battery availability. It's already determined that Lithium reserves are going to run out relatively soon if new sources are not found, and I imagine that Nickel's in a similar predicament. That's why Toyota spends over a Million dollars a day on battery research. Whoever nails the cellulose/water or dirt/oil battery will be in the catbird seat.

What we don't have a lack of is riteous indignation. If that could somehow be converted to electricity we can just shut down the reactors right now

I am extremely glad that the Volt is out there. It runs contrary to the what-will-our-next-quarter-look-like? corporate philosophy. To a certain extent, it's a big research project. People are figuring out what works and doesn't. Skill sets are being developed. Groundwork is being laid for future projects to come which we will benefit from. Volt's aren't selling very well yet, but that's partially due to supply shortages. It's generally getting very good word of mouth from owners, including a guy at the notoriously grumpy CC.com who also owns a couple of serious performance cars. Maybie the detractors should shut up a bit and let things play out.

Thank you Josh and Teh E36 M3 for answering my question. I analyze data all day long for a living for I am familiar with the many ways that things can get skewed when someone is trying get the answer they want. I appreciate knowing both these studies and the arguments against them exist so I can get familiar with them.

alfadriver wrote: BTW- for those of you who like a challenge for a carreer- there you go. Develop a battery that uses common earth materials. One that it will not be an issue making 500,000,000 cars over 15 years, and still be able to supply batteries for everyone else. (a good alternative is to find a way to make Bauxite into aluminum that doesn't take so much electricity....) If a recharable can be made from silica, iron, aluminum and a spattering of precious metals, then we are talking.

What ever happened to all the work that was being done with using flywheels to store energy? I remember there being a lot of interest in that a few years ago?

Type Q wrote: What ever happened to all the work that was being done with using flywheels to store energy? I remember there being a lot of interest in that a few years ago?

AFAIK, nothing is off the table.

kreb wrote: Our friendly Ford representative isolates the key point to the future of Hybrids - battery availability. It's already determined that Lithium reserves are going to run out relatively soon if new sources are not found, and I imagine that Nickel's in a similar predicament. That's why Toyota spends over a Million dollars a day on battery research. Whoever nails the cellulose/water or dirt/oil battery will be in the catbird seat. What we don't have a lack of is riteous indignation. If that could somehow be converted to electricity we can just shut down the reactors right now I am extremely glad that the Volt is out there. It runs contrary to the what-will-our-next-quarter-look-like? corporate philosophy. To a certain extent, it's a big research project. People are figuring out what works and doesn't. Skill sets are being developed. Groundwork is being laid for future projects to come which we will benefit from. Volt's aren't selling very well yet, but that's partially due to supply shortages. It's generally getting very good word of mouth from owners, including a guy at the notoriously grumpy CC.com who also owns a couple of serious performance cars. Maybie the detractors should shut up a bit and let things play out.

So we can dismiss the idea that current battery materials are not exactly plentiful? BTW, it's not "the" key issue, it's just one that few seem to bring up. At the moment, there are plenty others of them, that are all being researched.

I never said I don't like the volt, and other hybrids. No, I actually said that I like them, too. makes people think. Although I'm not sure how hybrids are not part of the corporate philosophy- since all of them have ICE's and batteries and a large electric motor. The arrangement may be different.

Other versions of energy storage is different- flywheel, heat, pressure- whatever.

But for all of the talk about cars with large batteries, electric motors, and ICE's, it sure seems as if we miss the elephant in the room. Alternative, sure. Future... not so sure.

In reply to Type Q:

I remember reading about flywheel powered cars in popular mechanics about 15 years ago. I researched it at the time and found another popular mechanics article dating back to the 1970's... I think they will get it working right before they bring the flying car onto the market...

I have to believe there are some significant safety, energy storage density, and handling (the gyroscopic effect has to Berkley with you) hurdles to be overcome.

In speaking with a customer who works for cutting edge lab types, there is some promise in the capacitor type energy storage that will get the e-cars completely off batteries as well as solving the charging issues -literally less than a minute to recharge your capacitor cell vs the hours it takes to charge "conventional" type batteries, weight issues, and of course, replacement issues. Until then the e-cars are all just smoke and mirrors.

novaderrik wrote:

mndsm wrote:

David S. Wallens wrote: I'm driving one this weekend! We'll have a full report soon.

Make sure you get plenty of granola.

also, make sure you close your eyes when smugly telling everyone else how awesome the car is and how awesome you are for driving it..

THANKS!