FWD + Snow = Unimpressed

Scandinavian flick!

I've had VERY GOOD experiences with dedicated snow tires on a fwd car, like "this isnt awd?" good.

That being said, I find unintended oversteer to be infinately more manageable than unintended understeer.

Fwd Understeer is like watching an adult movie and the "tape" breaks just before the good part!

Fun fwd driving vid: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZN1aP1o_m8

OK, I'll be "that guy". If you need your handbrake to turn in the snow...you're going too fast. Seriously. In the 25+ years of winter snow driving I've done, I don't recall using the handbrake because I had to. I used it sometimes on an empty road because I wanted to hoon a little. And this is with most FWD cars. Assuming all else is equal, FWD is much better to drive in the snow than RWD. They'll pull from a stop much better. Yeah, you've got to really slow down to turn, but it's snow...what do you expect? Handbrake is a E36 M3 load of fun in an empty parking lot, but shouldn't be necessary in normal driving.

Tires. Yes. Tires. They make all the difference. My Kia Sedona on new tires is a beast in the snow. On worn tires, it's teh suck.

So much the tires. My moms Outback on those Michelin energy things won't pull itself out of the driveway in snow. Even with all four tires slowly turning there was exactly ZERO grip. I tried to explain this to her but my words fell on deaf ears. She's drunk the advertizing kool-aid.

In reply to Klayfish:

All else being equal. RWD is better to drive in the snow than FWD. In other words, I fundamentally disagree with your opinion.

DeadSkunk wrote:

Nick_Comstock wrote: I 100% agree, FWD sucks hard in the snow. I hate hate hate it. Give me RWD or give me death!

Just how often does it snow in Temple, Texas?

I remember a pretty good snow when I lived in that area (Killeen/Fort Hood). My Shelby Charger became a snowplow.

Lubbock gets a lot more snow ...

I've had snow tires on a 2wd Tacoma, Mazda3, and an AWD Sienna. RWD is the most fun, no question. Even with weight in the bed the rear tires seem to almost always be spinning. That's fun around town, but can be unnerving at higher speeds. FWD feels more planted with more weight over the driven tires. AWD + snows is almost boring.

If I'm hauling my family in the snow AWD>FWD>RWD. Maybe that's a lack of driver skill, but I'm more comfortable with FWD.

Left foot brake and/or throttle chop will get the back end to come around. Once pivoting hit the gas to pull forward. Only counter steer if it starts to get away from you.

We can argue all day what's better; FWD or RWD. Real men can drive both well!

In reply to Jeff:

I'm not a real man.

I am a hazard in a FWD car in slippery conditions. I simply don't have the skill set to be able to drive one.

I've driven RWD vans, trucks and cars for thousands of miles in snow and ice with zero accidents. On the other hand, the times I've attempted to drive a FWD car in the snow I've accumulated about 150 feet and have ended up hopelessly stuck against the curbs of our heavily crowned roads.

I've told this here before, we had about an inch of hard pack under about four inches of fresh snow. Mom didn't want me to drive my car because everyone knows F-bodies are insta-death in the snow. It'd be hard to get much more weight over the front tires than an 85 Riviera, I tried to simply pull it out on the road for fifteen minutes. I looked like that guy in the Cherokee video. After giving up I jumped in my 80 Trans Am, that was parked directly behind it, and simply drove to school, no dramas.

I'm hardwired for RWD, I instinctively know what to do to get the vehicle to react the way I need it to. Frankly I have no desire to learn how to drive far inferior vehicles

I guess i'm an idiot. Our two Maximas and my wife's current Solara are much better in snow than either my Nissna truck (it's death trap in snow or ice) or the 2wd 4runner. I have no idea what the handbrake is used for, but I don't go out hooning either. I go to the store to get breadmilkeggs and go the hell back home. Yea I'm a wussy.

I can drive either. I drove an 89 Caprice for several years. I drove 1wd GM trucks, and now a plethora of FWD cars. If the snow is super deep we'll take the 1wd Sierra with weight just for the ground clearance.

I have ice raced AWD/RWD/FWD all are very fun and require different technique.

Since the OP is new to FWD I suggest that you go back to basics of feeling out the car on some wider low speed corners. Figure out how the front grip can be manipulated. Sometimes you let the front grip on mild brakes to rotate the car, sometimes on part throttle, and sometimes you use the front tires like rocket thrusters throwing snow with the wheel cranked over. It depends a lot on the snow and grip available.

I found in my RWD that you couldn't always rotate the car on the power sometimes it would also go into terminal understeer so the issues are the same get the rear tires spinning the right amount relative to the angular velocity of the rear end stepping out.

AWD too can get into trouble, the 4 wheel drift can sometimes get you into going sideways fast when you thought it would rotate.

All need different technique.

My 4x4 trucks have always been really easy to drive in the winter. Good snow tires, some sort of limited slip/locker in the rear axle and even in 2wd, totally and utterly controllable. FWD, no sir, don't like it. I have had 2 FWDs, an Audi and an Altima and I have to say I completely disliked both of them in the snow, thats with winters on.

Klayfish wrote: If you need your handbrake to turn in the snow...you're going too fast.

Choosing to utilizing the ability to negotiate a turn at a higher rate of speed than another driver chooses = going too fast?

In my ~15 years of snow driving, I have also seen people get stuck because their purely grip based driving style did not allow them to maintain enough combined momentum and thrust to get through the deep snow...Like those piles and banks left by the plows at intersections, especially when only one of the two intersecting roads has been plowed.

In reply to Nick_Comstock: and I disagree with yours.

kevlarcorolla wrote: Lots of handbrake in a fwd ice racer is the slow way,a little handbrake can be used in a pinch if you fack it up and need a hail mary to keep from spearing head on into the bank. Fwd outruns all rwd easily with the exception of of 1st gen MR2's on the ice track up here,those 2 are very close in outright speed.I've driven both and much prefer a well setup fwd over the lackluster prepped MR2 I drove.

And there you have it.

In reply to Advan046:

That's by far the best, and least biased, overall analysis of this whole debate.

Driven5 wrote: Choosing to utilizing the ability to negotiate a turn at a higher rate of speed than another driver chooses = going too fast?

If you need to deliberately break traction at one end of the car to get around a corner, yes, you are going too fast for street driving. If you are racing or hooning, that's a different manner.

In my ~15 years of snow driving, I have also seen people get stuck because their purely grip based driving style did not allow them to maintain enough combined momentum and thrust to get through the deep snow...Like those piles and banks left by the plows at intersections, especially when only one of the two intersecting roads has been plowed.

In my ~30 years of snow driving, I've never even heard of that, much less seen it. And don't you generally have to stop at intersections anyway?

This has been covered in this thread. I can get by with either RWD or FWD in the snow. For normal humans, ie not Senna reincarnate like all of us, FWD is better because understeer is more predictable and easier to get out of than oversteer.

But anyway, TIRES!

I can't handbrake or left foot brake in my VW. ESC or brake override kick in. I have good snow/ice tires (Michelin X-Ice) and I'm getting around fine. No fun at all though.

DeadSkunk wrote: I was just out cruising the corners in my subdivision with the tail of the MINI hanging out. Just drive in a little quick and lift, then get back on it. If you're used to RWD who have to learn some new tricks. My other car is a Miata. If you asked me to get some place in a hurry on snow covered roads I'd take my MINI to do it.

Take a formula car! :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2g6sTSbxBU

Jeff wrote: Left foot brake and/or throttle chop will get the back end to come around. Once pivoting hit the gas to pull forward. Only counter steer if it starts to get away from you. We can argue all day what's better; FWD or RWD. Real men can drive both well!

Or a little trail braking.

All I can say is that I really, really, really miss my WRX right now.

Tom_Spangler wrote: If you need to deliberately break traction at one end of the car to get around a corner, yes, you are going too fast for street driving.

Darn those slightly sliding 10mph HOONIGANS!...Don't they know that anything over a non-sliding 8mph is too fast!?!

By extension: Any amount of sliding while negotiating a snow covered turn, for any reason (intentional or not), at either end of the car, no matter how mild and controllable it is, must all then be indicative of driving too fast...Because if the car experiences any amount of unintentional understeer through a corner, the only alternative at that speed is a similar amount of intentional oversteer.

.

Tom_Spangler wrote: In my ~30 years of snow driving, I've never even heard of that, much less seen it. And don't you generally *have* to stop at intersections anyway?

That kind of depends on how many of the intersections where you live are 4-way stops, as I probably make more turns that don't require stopping than do...And yes it can still be the case even leaving from a stop, depending on circumstances. It's also dependent on how much snow you get and how well plowed your roads are. Hell, I've seen it happen to people just trying to get in/out of their own driveway after the street has been plowed. If the snow is deep enough, you need momentum to get through it. Period. This is especially true if there is an embankment deeper than the ground clearance on your vehicle. In order to navigate a corner even from a snow packed plowed road, through an 8"-12" deep wet/heavy/chunky snow plow line, continuing on to a 4"-6" deep snow covered unplowed side road in a passenger car with 6" of ground clearance, you will:

1) Intentionally initiate a mild slide at the rear before entering it, in order to carry sufficient momentum.

2) Unintentionally initiate a mild slide at the front after entering it, as a result of carrying sufficient momentum.

3) Maybe struggle through, maybe get stuck.

Driven5 wrote:

Klayfish wrote: If you need your handbrake to turn in the snow...you're going too fast.

Choosing to utilizing the ability to negotiate a turn at a higher rate of speed than another driver chooses = going too fast? In my ~15 years of snow driving, I have also seen people get stuck because their purely grip based driving style did not allow them to maintain enough combined momentum and thrust to get through the deep snow...Like those piles and banks left by the plows at intersections, especially when only one of the two intersecting roads has been plowed.

Living where I do, getting the snow we get and how it accumulates, you have no idea how that holds true. 3" of snow translates into 3' tall drifts across the road right at the turning point. If you don't have momentum, you don't make it through and become a hazard to the next person.

There IS a time when it is necessary to break traction to negotiate a turn and it doesn't mean you're hooning.

This has become a typical internet argument where you are arguing against points I never made. So, you win, I'm out.