The SCCA has done away with the Junior Driver Program for good. No more kids and karts.
This seems a little short sighted to me.
Discuss.
The SCCA has done away with the Junior Driver Program for good. No more kids and karts.
This seems a little short sighted to me.
Discuss.
Did they give any reasoning or anything when announcing the decision?
In reply to Mr_Asa :
I'm sure it was a safety decision driven by their insurance company.
In reply to Toyman01 + Sized and :
Could it have been a lack of participation or tracks not suitable for karts? Elkhart Lake for example is 4 miles with 3 really long high speed straights.
In reply to frenchyd :
This is kids autocross karts. Parking lots and cones.
We had a pretty strong showing locally. We sponsored a father that would bring 3 entry level karts and enough cones to set up a nice course. He, his son, and his wife would run them all day. Any kid could drive and they would get hours of seat time and instruction. It was an outstanding program that is unfortunately now dead.
Probably because they were tired of injuring and killing kids and couldn't come up with reasonable ways to ensure safety. IMO the rare reasonable and responsible decision by the scca. If you read the release they recognized that there are a few regions with enough support and ability to run a good program, but not enough to justify continuing to offer the program. Which based on what I've seen sounds accurate.
In reply to dps214 :
People get injured and killed in almost every sport known to man. It is an unfortunately a fact of life. That doesnt mean you stop doing them.
I honestly thought the future direction of the junior solo karting programs would be electric karts. Safety wise not having to push start and not having the possibility of a throttle return spring failure cleans up a lot of potential issues.
Had there actually been any deaths from karting in autocross? I'd never heard that.
I'd imagine it was a combination of low participation and annoyance of other participants at having to shut the course down for 10-15 minutes while the kids run and get lost...
If kiddo wants to get into racing, I'll probably have her do it at the indoor racing venue where they have a junior league.
mtn said:Had there actually been any deaths from karting in autocross? I'd never heard that.
I'd imagine it was a combination of low participation and annoyance of other participants at having to shut the course down for 10-15 minutes while the kids run and get lost...
If kiddo wants to get into racing, I'll probably have her do it at the indoor racing venue where they have a junior league.
Yes there was a death about five years ago, and it wasn't the first incident of that type. They added some required safety systems after that I think, and despite that a couple of years ago there was yet another incident of the same type (no death/major injury from that one afaik) which made them decide to put the program on pause and reevaluate.
Well this sucks. My boys are just getting to the age where they want to get a go kart. I was looking forward to having SCCA autocrosses as a usage venue.
Purely anecdotal, but I've never seen a kid get hurt karting in an autox setting. I've seen a dad who was too top heavy for the wheelbase of his kid's kart tip it over in a corner. No ambulance, but I'm pretty sure his shoulder was in bad shape.
In reply to Toyman01 + Sized and :
There are inherent risk with any activity. The important thing isn't to make that proclamation and state this is fine and that they knew what they signed up for, nor is it to scrap a plan, program or activity. The proper thing to do is to evaluate the potential dangers and concerns, what causes them, And then develop a solution to eliminate or greatly limit the concern. You (organizationally) find a way to do things better.
This may sound crazy, as it's definitely far outside of the box with regards to thought process, but who makes up a large percentage of the population who have children involved in karting? It's adults that involved in motorsports that already have their motorsport toys and involve their children in the hobby. And what do those adults have? A 20v cordless tool infrastructure.
If I were part of the SCCA leadership, I would be reaching out to the major power tool manufacturers imploring them to develop an 80v electric kart for the junior karting program that uses their lithium ion batteries for tools. I would send out a quick survey questionnaire to all the members inquiring about what tools they own within their current cordless infrastructure, what are their favorites, what tool they would like to see within the infrastructure that isn't available within their current one, etc. I would gift wrap the market research information for a potential partner, as I would want them to sponsor and support the program that would pretty much be a requirement, but I would pretty much show them these are the numbers of people that have the potential to flip to your cordless infrastructure. And motorsports people have a significant level of loyalty with regards to supporting companies and businesses that support amateur motorsports. Not to mention they're going to sell a lot of 6 amp hour 20 volt batteries to move those 80v karts around.
I live less than 3 miles from the world headquarters for Stanley Black&Decker and have friends who work for them and they question how to get their tools into more garages as the competition is pretty insane and profit margins aren't all the stellar (due to the competition from Harbor Freight and Hart) so brand loyalty is what you chase and Milwaukee is the leader in the clubhouse in that regard. If they had numbers and information from a trusted source that represented a significant population within the market, I have zero hesitation in thinking that they would put their money where their mouth is with regards to partnering with a company to develop an electric kart that utilizes their DeWalt battery ecosystem.
mtn said:Had there actually been any deaths from karting in autocross? I'd never heard that.
I actually saw a young lady die in a kart accident in 2014. I was standing in the paddock next to my 914 getting ready to go out with the next run group when the kart on the track went right off the course into the weeds and her helmet went flying. The fence was just one heavy duty cable stretched between two concrete posts. What they used at the end of the parking lots there to keep people from driving on the grass. She didn't really lose control like the article said. She just did not turn at the last corner, went through the cones and right off the track. More like distraction or brain fade. The kart went under and the cable caught her right at the neck and pulled her helmet off and the kart kept going about 100 feet or so into the grass before it rolled to a stop. At first I wasn't quite sure what I just saw. It's not something you ever forget.
Since it was Texas Motor Speedway and there was another event going on, the helicopter was on site and right there minutes after the accident. It didn't matter.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2700052/Honor-student-14-killed-Go-Kart-crash.html
mtn said:Had there actually been any deaths from karting in autocross? I'd never heard that.
Yes, there was. A 10-12 year old girl was killed in a karting incident a few years ago.
The other half of it, aside from the insurance and liability issue, is that a bustling autocross event with 150 cars grinds to a complete halt for 20+ minutes, right in the middle, while the handful of junior karts run. Literally, zero car movement allowed in grid or paddock.
I fully understand the benefits of getting your kids started young, but maybe there is a better way to do that.
In reply to captdownshift (Forum Supporter) :
I pay more for Milwaukee because it's red and black.
Can regional SCCA chapters still hold junior karting? IIRC my local region didn't really care about junior karts because nobody really ran them, and SCCA Solo presence in the region where I'm about to move is next to none.
No JDP = no kid karts period.
I'd just like to add that the head of the SEB and the head of the investigation committee is the parent of a former junior karter that's now a multi time national champion and also ran maybe the best local junior karting program in the country at the time. So I'm sure they're very aware of the benefits of the program and didn't take the decision to shut it down lightly.
dps214 said:No JDP = no kid karts period.
I'd just like to add that the head of the SEB and the head of the investigation committee is the parent of a former junior karter that's now a multi time national champion and also ran maybe the best local junior karting program in the country at the time. So I'm sure they're very aware of the benefits of the program and didn't take the decision to shut it down lightly.
On that note- it would be interesting to see data of how many Jr Karters moved up to any other SCCA motorsport. I would hope the numbers are very high in percentage, but I do wonder about that.
If it was not producing the results that the SCCA wanted, and had the risk, well, ending it would be pretty natural.
Duke said:mtn said:Had there actually been any deaths from karting in autocross? I'd never heard that.
Yes, there was. A 10-12 year old girl was killed in a karting incident a few years ago.
The other half of it, aside from the insurance and liability issue, is that a bustling autocross event with 150 cars grinds to a complete halt for 20+ minutes, right in the middle, while the handful of junior karts run. Literally, zero car movement allowed in grid or paddock.
I fully understand the benefits of getting your kids started young, but maybe there is a better way to do that.
I'm not sure if the one I saw was the one that you are talking about or if there was another one, but in the one I saw the driver hit a cable with her neck. Not really a fence. It was a weird set up with one cable stretched between concrete posts designed to keep people in the parking lot during NASCAR races and to control traffic so nobody drives out through the dirt field. If a car hit it instead of the go kart it would have done some serious damage before the cable broke but the driver would have walked away. The chances of something like that ever happening again are a million to one. I have trouble believing that one freak accident would have killed the entire program. Maybe if there were other incidents, or the kids just weren't moving up into other SCCA classes as they got older.
Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) said:Duke said:mtn said:Had there actually been any deaths from karting in autocross? I'd never heard that.
Yes, there was. A 10-12 year old girl was killed in a karting incident a few years ago.
The other half of it, aside from the insurance and liability issue, is that a bustling autocross event with 150 cars grinds to a complete halt for 20+ minutes, right in the middle, while the handful of junior karts run. Literally, zero car movement allowed in grid or paddock.
I fully understand the benefits of getting your kids started young, but maybe there is a better way to do that.
I'm not sure if the one I saw was the one that you are talking about or if there was another one, but in the one I saw the driver hit a cable with her neck. Not really a fence. It was a weird set up with one cable stretched between concrete posts designed to keep people in the parking lot during NASCAR races and to control traffic so nobody drives out through the dirt field. If a car hit it instead of the go kart it would have done some serious damage before the cable broke but the driver would have walked away. The chances of something like that ever happening again are a million to one. I have trouble believing that one freak accident would have killed the entire program. Maybe if there were other incidents, or the kids just weren't moving up into other SCCA classes as they got older.
That specific incident is super unlikely to ever happen again, but that kind of incident (kart ends up driving under something, most commonly trying to wedge itself under another car) has happened multiple times, including the most recent incident that triggered the reconsideration of the program.
Also probably didn't help that the texas incident set the precedent that the club can be successfully sued for negligence even if the source of 99% of the negligence of the incident is the person bringing the lawsuit.
It is my understanding there were two fatalities; My son ran a Jr kart for several years (he's now 27) and while I'm sad to see it go I understand why they did it.
dps214 said:Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) said:Duke said:mtn said:Had there actually been any deaths from karting in autocross? I'd never heard that.
Yes, there was. A 10-12 year old girl was killed in a karting incident a few years ago.
The other half of it, aside from the insurance and liability issue, is that a bustling autocross event with 150 cars grinds to a complete halt for 20+ minutes, right in the middle, while the handful of junior karts run. Literally, zero car movement allowed in grid or paddock.
I fully understand the benefits of getting your kids started young, but maybe there is a better way to do that.
I'm not sure if the one I saw was the one that you are talking about or if there was another one, but in the one I saw the driver hit a cable with her neck. Not really a fence. It was a weird set up with one cable stretched between concrete posts designed to keep people in the parking lot during NASCAR races and to control traffic so nobody drives out through the dirt field. If a car hit it instead of the go kart it would have done some serious damage before the cable broke but the driver would have walked away. The chances of something like that ever happening again are a million to one. I have trouble believing that one freak accident would have killed the entire program. Maybe if there were other incidents, or the kids just weren't moving up into other SCCA classes as they got older.
That specific incident is super unlikely to ever happen again, but that kind of incident (kart ends up driving under something, most commonly trying to wedge itself under another car) has happened multiple times, including the most recent incident that triggered the reconsideration of the program.
Also probably didn't help that the texas incident set the precedent that the club can be successfully sued for negligence even if the source of 99% of the negligence of the incident is the person bringing the lawsuit.
In fact, if I had hit the cable with my car and broke it, Texas Motor Speedway would have sent me a bill. I have heard warnings at more than one event that if you spin out and damage the fence, you just bought it. I am not sure if there was a lawsuit over the incident I saw. You could make the claim that the cable fence was actually a hazard to go karts and they should have put the course somewhere else.
Death is one thing its rare but it happens. Injury is likely what put them over the edge. Couple papers form the 2010's in Europe showing that 50% of all Kart racers under 24 years old have a injury requiring medical intervention.
This is what they list as medical intervention injury.
Calcaneal or ankle fracture caused by pedals; humeral, shoulder, or clavicular fracture after side impact; wrist or hand fracture by steering wheel. Rib fracture, lung contusion, pneumothorax, fladder thorax, cor contusion, diaphragm rupture; rupture or contusion of spleen, liver, gal bladder, pancreas, kidney, or intestines; fracture or luxation of foot, lower limb, hip, or pelvis
Tom1200 said:It is my understanding there were two fatalities; My son ran a Jr kart for several years (he's now 27) and while I'm sad to see it go I understand why they did it.
One, in 2014, and a nearly identical incident last year at the same location with no injuries.
A successful lawsuit even in one instance is likely the insurance death of the program.
I'm sad, I have two young boys and was looking forward to doing that with them. I'll need to look to WKA for possibilities. That said, if it was going to alter rates enough to effect the whole solo program, I get it.
Quarter midgets are a popular way to get your kid into racing here.
That said, SCCA is kind of shooting themselves in the foot if they are stopping the program for insurance reasons. Seems like making the program safer would be smarter than cutting off their feedstock.
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