Got some of these for my mk1 audi tt (same chassis as mk4 vw for those who don't know).
I want maximum camber and caster, so I was thinking about getting extensions for the heim joints. Something like this
What do you think about durability of a setup like this? Think it'll snap?
And a second question. Do I lube the heims. Or leave them as is. I read that bike chain lube is best. Thoughts?
I wouldn't run any kind of extender between the heim and the arms. Seems super sketchy and likely to snap.
As far as lubing the heims goes, a nice dry lube should work well. Something like triflow so it won't attract too much dirt. They're going to make a racket regardless.
I would return the godspeed units and start over here:
I'd only consider those for links loaded in pure tension-compression, and when made from the same or higher grade material as the rod ends. Your arms, especially the rear (?) part will experience bending loads too. The threaded rod end in bending is already less than ideal. The adaptor length will increase the leverage and multiply that bending load into the adaptors threads, which is no-bueno.
No! No Way! No Freiken way!
Godspeeds welds and build quality looks pretty good to me tbh.
The larger concern is that you can only do so much before your inner CV joints run out of travel.
A good weld looks like a pile of coins laid over on a flat surface, those welds look more like spilled nacho cheese. A 1-piece control arm sees loads in all kinds of odd directions which is why I would both not use a heim extension on one and why those welds are particularly worrying. I do like that they use a lot of weld area and gusseting, if they used more where the tubes join I would feel more comfortable running that control arm.
In reply to GameboyRMH :
Good welds will make one think of pearl jam's "even flow" not "dirty Frank" the variance of the width of those welds, in addition to some looking like peanut butter that was spread by a knife, scream to me that they were done by a blind 8 year old at a facility where there's so such thing as quality control. I've seen vehicles at HPDEs fail tech inspection for less and if I knew that I was sharing the track with someone using arms of that quality, they'd be listening to a very unpleasant conversation in the paddock.
When you decide to take a vehicle on track the equipment and preparation of your vehicle is not only a responsibility to yourself but to those that you share the track with. If you're going to throw E36 M3 on the wall to see what fits in the save $40, you're in the wrong hobby.
Tadope said:Godspeeds welds and build quality looks pretty good to me tbh.
Weld quality not withstanding, we have broken arms with that design in half with drag launches. Even snaps that gusset in half.
In reply to Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) :
Yeah... that gusset is exactly how not to do a gusset on a tube. It loads into a tube like a hard edge on an egg. An egg can support a lot of weight or it can crack immediately depending on how it is loaded.
if thats the case then any tubular lca is a failure.
Here of some of the alternative brands 2-3x the price.
I feel like the godspeed look just more durable not less.
However. Pete_vr6 has realworld experience snapping them so thats unfortunate. But drag launches are a level that I think outclassed any of these arms
There is really no point to them, IMO. They tend to be more fragile, can be heavier, and rod ends are a maintenance nightmare.
If you are doing crazy things with suspension geometry, it makes sense from a fabrication standpoint.
And these are the uber expensive usrually team arms. They are even using the extenders by default!!
I feel like people are just being brand favorite. When these arms are all the same level of durability
THOSE arms are still hokeyish but if you look, all lateral forces are contained by one link, and the longitudinal forces from the other link are spread out over a much longer area.
Notice the rod ends are choked up very far. Almost no visible threads. This is not by accident.
The devil is in the details. A cheap version of something that looks something like a well-engineered one is often viewed as basically the same thing, but it's those details that really matter. Most tubular control arms are built with no understanding of load paths and are foisted off on unknowing buyers on eBay who think that tubular must be better because racecar!
Looking at the arms in the eBay auction, I predict a failure under braking and a tendency for the ball joint to slip under heavy cornering loads, taking away all the camber with a bang. If the steering wheel ever goes off center, stop driving.
I also see a stock design that looks a whole lot superior.
Honestly, if the car will be street driven, you really don't want to go to him joints. Not just for NVH purposes, but maintenance cycle. Depending on mileage and conditions, they will likely develop play within a year and you will have to replace the ends every season. Ok for a racecar, pain for the street.
I'm not digging the load paths in those orange ones. Additionally, it looks like they utilize a MIG process that may not be set up the best. Hard to tell from internet pictures, but that's a lot of material up from the surface and it looks inconsistent. Stacked coins is inherent to a TIG process, good mig need not have it, but I look for consistency and penetration.
I haven't owned a German car in about a decade, and even then it was a clapped out e30 automatic. I have no dogs in this fight. I do however have an engineering degree. Those parts might be alright for street posing, but HPDE? I wouldn't. No brand favoritism here.
What are you really trying to fix? Urethane or derlin with camber bolts on n the stock arms may be the lighter, more durable, lower maintenance way to go. I don't know the car though.
Apexcarver said:Honestly, if the car will be street driven, you really don't want to go to him joints. Not just for NVH purposes, but maintenance cycle. Depending on mileage and conditions, they will likely develop play within a year and you will have to replace the ends every season. Ok for a racecar, pain for the street.
The rod ends in the rear suspension of my RX-7 would last about three days before they started knocking loose. At $60/pop I would live with the noise for a while then replace them when they'd get REALLY bad.
I now have Johnny Joints, UMI joints, and stock links that have been cut off with some 5/8" left hand allthread welded in. No more problems. (My rear suspension geometry is far from stock, and the rearend started life in a 70's Ford and was in a circle track truck before it made its way to me... adjustability is mandatory. But it is all simple tension/compression links, not arms)
I'm not digging the load paths in those orange ones.
Yeah... any lateral loads going in on the ball joint have no straight load path. They're going to be trying to bend the longitudinal arm, which is really, really badly supported. And then braking forces are going to be putting a TON of load on that with all the leverage available. They're gusseted in the wrong place! But really, the whole design is crap from the start.
What are you really trying to fix?
This is a question that one has to learn to ask about every change they want to make.
In reply to Tadope :
Those are properly engineered balljoint spacers, not simply big long nuts that you hope don't have a million stress risers from cutting the threads or improper heat treatment.
Balljoint spacers don't need to be paired with aftermarket rod ends (and rod ends are a terrible solution for an application where a balljoint should be used) and they've been used by racing teams for decades, from the MK1 Golf to now. The difference is that they typically welded the spacer to the bottom of the upright, after bolting it in place to ensure that they keep the same single point of failure.
What is it that you're trying to accomplish? Reduce suspension lash/movement to improve the repeatability of the suspension and feel? Are you needing extra camber or caster adjustment that you can't get from the stock control arms, even with offset bushings? If you want to correct your geometry after lowering your car, get proper balljoint spacers, have them properly welded in place and go hit the track.
You asked for our advice and you've got some really knowledgeable people here, many of whom work in the industry and they are also users of products from many different vendors and they are generally telling you the same thing. You are headed down the wrong path.
Stop typing and spend sometime reading the posts. Read them over and over until you don't feel the need to reply. There's no emotional content here, its all just friendly advice. Take it for what its worth to you.
In reply to Stefan (Forum Supporter) :
I can think of one good place for rod ends at the ball joint... er... joint. Servicability. Stage rally cars, at least as far back as the Group 4 Audis, used a big stud on the bottom of the upright, and the control arm had a rod end (or, more typically, a ball joint housing with a through-hole spherical bearing) attached with a nut. The ones I have typically seen in pictures had a significantly larger diameter for the rod end, say 22-24mm diameter with a 14-16mm nut. This way, you don't have to fight tapers or pinch bolts when you're trying to drop the subframe or change the suspension corner under a strict timeframe, it's one nut and it falls apart.
Andrew Havas's RX-7 did something really neat that I may be doing in the future: He used FC front uprights, which have a 18mm pinch bolted stud like many Mazdas from the 80s did. Cut the head off of an 18mm aircraft bolt, cut a groove for the pinch bolt, and pinch that in. Then the fabricated control arm uses an 18mm ID rod end for the ball joint.
To highlight the biggest reason I'd shy away from that. Lower control arm failure on the track has a very good probability of landing you on your roof. Part breaks, you have control fight, depart track, wheel folds under and digs into soft ground or gravel, tip...
I run a inexpensive formula car with a rod end suspension. They get inspected for play after every event. The arms are also tig welded chromoly
In reply to Tadope :
Trust me when I say there is no confirmation bias or suggesting that you cherry pick the most RACE arms on USRTs page. The is a chromoly tigged set of street/track arms on the page that I linked to for under $400 a set and there are hiem joints in polyurethane bushing options that press into stock arms also in the menu page that I linked to.
You don't jump to race spec parts unless you're trailering the vehicle to the track. The link that I shared provides no fewer than four different options to skin this cat. I suggest you read up on those different options review them and ask questions about what the different in those options are. As you may want to question Why a company would offer four different options to effectively solve the same problem for a platform. You would think that there has to be advantages and disadvantages to those various options which would be why they would provide multiple possibilities. You may want to reach out to them and choir about the strengths and weaknesses of those and communicate how you realistically use your vehicle, not how you want to use it in the future or envision that it may be used 3 to 4 years from now. And upon doing so they can probably give you guidance pertaining to the best option for your current use. And then also guidance to what may be the next course of option a few years from now if it becomes time to upgrade.
Well thanks I'm amazed at the interest people had in this post.
Luckily I can actually weld myself. I agree the welds on the red ones look a bit high. Could have used more heat/penetration. But it looks well within the range of a proper join.
Some of those other brands have better welds but they don't even bother to weld every spot. Whereas the red ones have welded every possible location that might need it.
I think if I run them I might just go in and add some more support.
About what I'm trying to do.
Basically the TT front end is a fwd based Macpherson chassis. So it needs all the help it can get. #1 is that it has zero caster adjustment. So I want that from the arms. Also the stock arms need more camber range.
Also ill be getting a tubular subframe similar to the usually ones eventually. And tubular arms with heims are actually a requirement in that case. Plus the weight loss and stiffness increase.
The car will is hpde driven and street driven.
Does nobody make camber/caster plates for your car?
In reply to Driven5 :
GC makes them for up to -1.8 in the front and BC makes them as wellz with redshift carrying the BC option on their revalved BC coilover option. The arms do allow for maximizing caster more then tophats do, but I definitely would've started with a proper coilover setup over using lower quality components in multiple aspects of the suspension. I recommended GC coilovers when the OP was selecting coilovers...
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