Help me pick a ride.

A bit more information:

1. I have no idea what I am doing. I have restored and old Plymouth a number of years ago.
2. I have 0 experience on track and at autocross. Just a interested beginner. So, HPDE until I am ready for wheel to wheel. Autocross events are around me. So I would say 3 autocross to 2 track events ratio.
3. BOTH my wife and I want to do this. Yep, my wife is pushing me to get a car to have fun at the track.
4. Money is not a concern. I am simply attempting to try GRMs article to but together a track worthy car for less than $10K.

This place has a way of changing your mind. Lets stipulate RWD to at least narrow the field. If hard top modifications are a sure thing then we can still include rag tops. I like the MR2 - but it seems like it will be awkward to work on being mid-engine. I prefer Honda make only because I have Honda connections. But there is a pretty big push for Miata here at GRM. This is expected as this looks to be the #1 member posted ride. Since, initially I will NOT be wheel to wheel on the track, track ready is a future concern. I did some quick price checks between Miata and sx2000, the Miata has bunches in the price range and since the SX is still new relative to Miata the cheapest SX I found was $8k. This pushes me back to Miata. But the C4 vette lingers...

Has anyone got first hand experience comparing C4 to a Miata on track/autocross?

I have to be fair here, C4s are very prevalent and cheap. This is a funny experience for me because I am moving my selection to the two cars that personally had at the bottom of my list, Miata and C4 - but purely for non-racing interests!

I'm going to provide a different input...

GRM used to have a 6th gen Celica that they competed with. The pricing on the 1990s Celicas is stupidly dirt cheap right now, and you can get a HELL of a car for your money.

A 1990-1993 Celica GT/GTS can be had in good mechanical condition for $1500 or under. They're excellent handling cars, stock, have enough grunt to keep you entertained, and are dead nuts reliable. There are upgrades available, although not to the extent that there are with Hondas.

For a $10k budget, you could EASILY build a ridiculous scary monster of a car that will be stupid fast in a straight line, handle anything you throw at it, and stop on a dime.

For $5k budget, you could still do that, just might not be a 400whp monster... think.... 275-300whp, and still get your handling and braking bits.

If you want simple... then do some bolt ons on the 5sfe, basic breathing mods, maybe a cam regrind, mill the head .040, gut the crap out of it, suspension of your choice, (Konis and Ground Controls, KSport coilovers, Megan Racing Coilovers) update to 92-93spec 4-wheel discs if necessary, and go racing.

Yes, i'm a fanboy. But especially when going with the GT-S, it's pretty hard to argue against the amount of rubber you can cram under the stock wheelwhells as well.

I would not hesitate to go head to head with any FWD Honda dollar to dollar, mod for mod, on any track.

And the fact that you have a camry motor makes it pretty easy to repair pretty much ANYTHING that could (but won't) go wrong with a cheap trip to the junkyard is nice, too.

I got my particular 1992 GT for $600, threw some springs on it, redid the brakes, strut tower bracing, gutted it, chucked on some 2000-2005 Celica GTS wheels, Hankook Ventus RS2s, and had a BLAST with it.

Just my input.

PS: I also like MR2s.

You can get a competitive fully race prepped 1st gen RX7 for $2k - $5k usually with spares. Not street legal but not sure if that is needed.

Miata is a good candidate if you fit.

The 2nd gen FC RX7 is also a great car for motorsports activities

All very reliable and cheap.

93celicaGT2 wrote: For a $10k budget, you could EASILY build a ridiculous scary monster of a car that will be stupid fast in a straight line, handle anything you throw at it, and stop on a dime.

If this is how you're getting into HPDE, I don't think you want to do that yet. Start with something that will be forgiving, dependable, affordable to operate, and teach you good habits. That's why I say Miata.

You won't need fancy safety gear to start HPDE (although safety gear is always a good idea). You don't need a fancy tuned suspension yet, either. You don't need race tires. You don't want a ton of power yet.

If this is going to be your first track car, it won't matter much. Chances are, that after a while doing track days, you'll have a genuine idea of what the "right" car for you is.

If this is going to see shared duty, what you need is a car that is rugged, dependable, predictable, and has good cooling and braking systems. Preferably something lightweight so that you're not lugging around extra mass to stress the brakes and heating of the car. With a lightweight car you won't be worried about constantly replacing expensive brakes and tires.

If you like Hondas. Go Honda. A civic is a great car. It will take two people to and from the track. It is light and dependable.

You can't go wrong with a Miata or C4 either. However, the Corvette will have higher operating costs. It is heavier and has bigger tires. The E30 BMW is also a good choice.

Here's my final answer: keeping in mind your price goals, what makes you smile when you think, "Gee, I'd really like to drive a _." The point is to have fun. Hunt for a fun car.

^HAhaha, yeah... i'm not suggesting that he does that...

But for $3k invested, that'll be enough to make sure it's running right, re-do the brakes, and get a good suspension going on, with enough power to be fun, but not too much that it'll keep him in trouble.

135 crank hp out of the stock 2.2 litre isn't anything special.

Just my opinion, and i like Celicas. So that's what i mess with.

I really agree with the idea of getting whatever you like.

pinchvalve wrote: Honda

Just wanted to say thanks for posting this one up, you may be glad to know that it went to a longtime Honda autocrosser friend of mine (who is a member on here and a former challenge competitor) after I posted the link in our local club's forum. He's already made the mistake of offering me a drive in it next autocross season .

I am a bit annoyed that he'll have far less invested in this car than I have in my STS2 Miata though. This will sting even more when he is beating me by several seconds every run next season :).

Allow me to interject one item: this thread is the reason GRM boards are pretty much the only motorsports board worth reading. A big honkin' noob (no offense, scrowner, really - we all started there) shows up with a big, obvious question, and not only does not a single response say politely, 'dude, do a search, this question has been answered a bajillion times,' everyone chimes in with welcoming, constructive advice, and a healthy, honest conversation ensues. Why, it's almost as if these were real people, speaking face-to-face in the real world, and not some faceless internet beings, incapable and devoid of feeling, meaningfulness or human worth. Even those of us who disagree in the most colorful manner (P71, Ignorant, I'm looking your way here) can chime in to help the new guy out.

I'm getting little verklemmt over here. Talk amongst yourselves. I'll give you a topic...

But no, seriously, I love you guys (and gals). Really. I. Love. You. Man.

Now then. As you were.

swift gti. great great autocrossers, easy to work on. cheap for the performance. parts are expensive though.

Subaru Justy FTW

alex wrote: Even those of us who disagree in the most colorful manner (P71, Ignorant, I'm looking your way here) can chime in to help the new guy out.

thanks.. I am trying to keep it clean and constructive. This is a good place. I am an annoying oppiniated SOB that dosen't know when to stop pushing. but.... I do enjoy the smell of burnt fuel like the next guy and for anyone who has been to a race track anywhere.. Racers help racers.. period. We can disagree about cars etc.. but in the end.. we help each other no questions asked.

This place has been fantastic in pushing me in the correct direction. I picked up GRM at the book store the other day and was so pleased I went and got a subscription and then launched into this board. Alex above is pointing out how painless you all have made it for me and I appreciate the cool treatment.

I have found a couple HT Miatas for less than $4k which I plan to take for a test spin this weekend!

scrowner wrote: I have found a couple HT Miatas for less than $4k which I plan to take for a test spin this weekend!

That, Sir, is the kiss of death. Most here seem to find that once you test drive one, you'll own one. I also suggest the Miata for all of the reasons Salanis mentioned.

Yes, nice to see all of the helpful help. I still stand by the CRX/Civic for a low-buck track car--fast enough, reliable, easy on brakes and tires, and can carry its own wheels and tires to the track. However, there have been lots of great suggestions made in this thread. Keep them coming.

alex wrote: Even those of us who disagree in the most colorful manner (P71, Ignorant, I'm looking your way here) can chime in to help the new guy out.

Hey, it's better then arguing about politics.

I still say C4 Corvette for what you want to do. While Honda's do make nice track cars, they are FWD and honestly a little slow without wrench time being put to them, which are two things you said you didn't want. If you were OK with some work in the garage I would recommend the 2nd Gen "FC" RX-7, but if you want a dead-nuts reliable, actually decently fast RWD, then you have to get the C4 Corvette. The later the better (LT1 vs SBC, SEFI vs. Cross-Fire Injection, regular gauges vs. Star Wars displays, better looks, 6-Speed vs. 4+3, etc).

Lot's of good choices. If you buy someone's old project or old race car you may pick up a nice deal. Just be ready to turn some wrenches. Neon's are super cheap and don't forget to check the IT forums for good deals: www.improvedtouring.com

Here you go: http://www.improvedtouring.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25087 A nice VW for $2,500 FYI - I pull my Rabbit with a dolley.

Early C4 Corvette. It is mostly built for you. Spend $6k on the car and the other $4k on safety equipment and better wheels/tires.

Has anyone got first hand experience comparing C4 to a Miata on track/autocross?

I own both a 90 Miata (nicely prepped, if I do say so myself) and a 92 LT1 C4. The Miata is always faster in an autox given the current level of prep in each. However, even though I'm generally slower in the C4 -- I never, ever finish a run and feel like I've been shortchanged. The C4 is more of a challenge to be quick in, but it has made me faster overall.

As for HPDE events, both have strengths. It is much cheaper to run the Miata (tires, brakes, and fuel consumption are all lower). However, the power of the C4 makes up for the higher cost :). It is cheaper to drive the C4 long distances -- I generally get 6 to 7 litres per 100 kms at cruising speeds (32 to 34 MPG) with the air on.

I put almost 10 000 kilometres on the C4 this summer -- including four track days, and at least 150 autox runs (multiple drivers at every event). I used up a set of Azenis, and a set of brake pads. That's it. It's been as reliable as the Miata, and parts are cheaper.

Honestly, the C4 feels like a big Miata. It's well-balanced, easy to drive, and predictable. Indeed, at just over 3200 pounds it almost qualifies as a "lghtweight" in this day and age.

For next year I'm going to stickier rubber on the C4, and I'm trying to upgrade the brakes -- they're good, but not great for sustained lapping. If you lived closer to me I'd tell you to come and drive both.

I'll never sell my Miata; but I've decided to always have a Corvette, too.

Alfa milanos can be good track cars too, if you are just doing track days, not racing. Imo they are similar to an E30, except more fun to drive. Most parts arent too expensive, but they do take a bit more care than alot of other cars. there are plenty of easily avaible upgrades for the suspension and brakes, not so much for the engine though (cams and headers, or low compression pistons and a supercharger are your main choices). Neons are good, so are MK2 volkswagens if you dont care about keeping it stock (making one fun involved replacing half of the car with parts from something else. lol)

Thanks for all the great information. I am now a proud owner of a 97 Miata. I bought it for $3K. HT, coil-over shocks, rebuilt engine w/40K, Volk wheels and original Mazda wheels (with decent tires), engine has a turbo installed - I forget at this writing but when I looked it up it was around $1700, he gave me a new oil cooler (which he never got around to installing), and a new limited slip differential that was a big ticket item, installed new exhaust.

I drove the car home after purchasing. Ran great - but what do I know.

My investment yet to come:

1. Fix the front blinkers as it was hand modified for intake as I need to register the car for road use. (me)

2. All new rotors and pads and brake lines. (me)

3. Change all the fluids and tune it up. (me)

4. Get it inspected and registered.

5. Install roll bar, new tires on the volk wheels, install sway bars and links, install racing seats and belts, new steering wheel with quick change.(me)

6. Maybe replace dinged fenders and add a rear spoiler. (me - someone else will paint)

7. Take it to a local Miata buff, York, have him tweak the engine performance as I know little about turbo mods and their effects. Apparently the turbo is capable of 270+ and is currently set to <190.(?)

8. All done by April 09 for the first instructional track day at Summit.

I think I can get all this done for <$8K.

Badass! Sounds like you got a great deal. Pics please.

A couple of things to think about:

Please no wing. They don't work on the Miata.

Just get it in solid running condition before trying to up performance any. Drive it and get used to it at lower performance. That's aimed at that turbo. 190hp in a Miata is a lot more than it sounds like. You might be happier with more dependability and less power, too.

What kind of limited slip? Torsen? Was it just the unit, or is it already installed in the pumpkin? They are really nice to have.

And, yeah, you can get everything done for <$8k

That's a STEAL! You did good!

I second the spoiler though, I like them. Pics?

I think I'm a little jealous, or a lot jealous :(

More info on the contents the car came with of which I know little about:

HKS GT25(?) bb Turbo currently set 180-190.

LSD is a Cusco MZ. (in a box handed to me)

Apexi SAFC air computer

HKS EVC5 electronic boost controller

HKS hypermax coil overs

HKS super sequential blow off valve

Racing Beat cat-back exhaust.

HKS oil cooler (handed to me in a box)

Why no spoiler? I am only thinking about the small spoiler on the rear. The car just seems to be missing something when I look at the rear end.

Pics: google links did not work for placing the pics here. You can try this link to view pic1 and pic2

Very nice! That's an excellent price for a turbo Miata with all those goodies.

Is that a new Skyline GTR in the garage?

You bastard I hate you.. just kidding I am slightly jealous though good deal and cool car complete with hardtop.