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Laserface
Laserface
9/18/22 11:47 a.m.

In 2019 I was hunting a sporty convertible. I was looking at used Boxsters, C5 Vettes, and ND Miatas. I fell in love with the ND, and the ND2s were freshly out and were enough of an improvement over the ND1s that I bought a new ND2. It was my first new car. 

I just passed 10k miles in the car, almost entirely pleasure driving. I still love driving it, but comfort is a huge issue. I recently got my E31 BMW back on the road, and I've realized how much of a penalty box the ND cabin is. I'm 6'2", 200lbs. My shoulders are wider than upper bolsters. My head sticks up above the "quiet zone" with top down, so my scalp is buffeted by wind that passes over shorter passengers. There is a lot of road noise, which I expected when I bought the car, but the car is exhausting on long highway trips. I've been driving the E31 lately simply because it is a much nicer place to be than the ND cabin. 

The E31 is by no means a boat, but it isn't even in the same league as the ND from a fun perspective. I love that the ND (6 speed manual) is eager and engaging at any speed. The transmission is phenomenal. The engine has plenty of low end grunt, and loves to rev to the 7500 fuel cut. Having the E31, I'm not particularly worried about the highway driving characteristics of an ND replacement. My main concern is finding a car that is as tossable and engaging. I define tossable as fun at virtually any speed, not needing to drive in excess of the speed limit to enjoy the car. I love the power to weight ratio on the car, and don't think I'd want something with significantly more power. I basically want my ND, but like 15-20% larger. I've enjoyed the convertible, but its kind of a been there, done that thing for me. Not opposed to another though.

The car will not be tracked.

I live in the southern Appalachians, and enjoying mountain roads would this car's purpose.

For newer cars, I've considered:

718 Cayman/Boxster. This would definitely help with the comfort issue. I'd be looking for a well optioned non-S model. As mentioned above, I don't need or want significantly more power. Even the base engine will be quite a bit more power than the ND. The 718 seems more appealing to me than the 981. Reviews seem to like the steering and driving dynamics of the 718 over the 981. Coming from the ND, I'm cool with the 4 cyl engine which is the biggest gripe I see about the 718. On paper, this is the perfect car for me, but my concern lies with the car being engaging. I feel like this car will be so capable that speeds I find fun in the ND will be mundane and boring in the 718. I do like the idea of the the PDK though. An automatic that is simply does its thing, but also has the potential to be sporty and engaging. I have issues with my left knee. The light clutch pedal in the ND is no issue, but heavier clutch pedals are a no go. I recently sold a Geo Tracker simply because its very heavy cable operated clutch was giving me knee pain.

Briefly considered a newer Mustang. I quickly ruled this out because it is not "tossable" and represents a massive increase in power.

Same with the Camaro. Properly equipped, it seems like a real driver's car. Too much car and too much engine for what I want.

It seems like the 2nd gen Toyota 86/Subaru BRZ might the right up my alley. More practical than the Miata and certainly a more accomodating cabin for someone my size. It seems they've fixed the major complaint from the first gen, which was the powertrain. I see nothing but praise for this car. It should have similar power, and be tossable and engaging at lower speeds. Impossible to find right now, though.

Something like a new Supra or M3/M4 is more car than I would want.

What cars am I missing that I should consider? Used cars don't scare me and I'm capable of major maintenance. I have a company car with personal use allowed, so even if the replacement and my E31 (it will) break down, its not an issue. This won't be my primary, or even my second car. Used cars that seem to fit my bill:

986/987. I've read how "raw" these cars are compared to the later cars. This seems to be the closest to a 15-20% larger ND that I will find. I'm sure they're overblown, but IMS issues are discouraging. I'm already maintaining one German drama queen, I'm not sure I want another. If I went 987 or later, I'd likely opt for a Cayman over Boxster. 09+ eliminates the IMS bearing and introduces the PDK option, but 987.2 cars are rare and seemed to be priced at 981 levels. I've read complaints about the EPS steering feel in the 981 vs the hydro in 987. I'm pretty happy with EPS in the ND though. I'd likely leapfrog the 981 and go 718. But I've just powercrept myself into too much car.

A 996/997 911. Too much car for me. I believe to get the same feel from this car that I get from the ND would have me at triple digit speeds. 

E36 M3. I'll fit and though it will have a little more, power will be comparable to the ND. The E46 could be an option, but could be approaching "too much car". There's also the whole S54 rod bearing thing. Both E36 and E46 are climbing in price these days. Not sure how tossable these are.

NC Miata. These seem to be roomier inside than NDs. I need some seat time in one for comparison. Seats being the keyword here, as the ND seats are one of my main problems. If comfort were acceptable, this seems like a good fit. I don't fit in NBs and don't want an NA. I've had seat time in a NA, but the ND has ruined it for me.

RX-8. Kind of a special case here, as I'd likely find a high mileage car with the rotary on its last legs and opt for an LFX swap. 

C5/C6. Likely non Z06. Definitely a power bump from the ND. Potentially too much car. 

I'm overwhelmed with choices and hoping to get some input from people who have driven both an ND and others on my list.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
9/18/22 12:01 p.m.

I'll admit, that's a large wall of text that I didn't get through.

As far as being comfortable, you'll just have to go try a bunch of different cars and see what fits. 

Laserface
Laserface New Reader
9/18/22 12:10 p.m.

In reply to z31maniac :

You and most people that see this, I'm sure. I really thought I'd be in the ND for a long time, but I guess the honeymoon is over.

I'm in a very rural area, and don't really have time to travel for a lot of test drives. Narrowing the playing field would help tremendously.

Appleseed
Appleseed MegaDork
9/18/22 12:32 p.m.

In reply to Laserface :

Are we looking at reasonably new cars? Like cars built this century? I've got a few ideas, but they are...older.

Laserface
Laserface New Reader
9/18/22 12:38 p.m.

In reply to Appleseed :

Reasonably new. I work in collision repair, and I see what happens to older cars in collisions vs newer cars. I definitely have a predilection for newer cars. I'm open to anything though.

John Welsh
John Welsh Mod Squad
9/18/22 12:43 p.m.

Your list is much what I would suggest. 

On the Mustang and Camaro front, have you considered the 4cyl turbo versions?  Does the less power and less weight make them more tossable? 

BlueInGreen - Jon
BlueInGreen - Jon UltraDork
9/18/22 12:43 p.m.

Sure sounds like BRZ/FRS/86 fits the bill.

And since you brought up the E36: What about a 318ti?

John Welsh
John Welsh Mod Squad
9/18/22 12:46 p.m.

The other Camaro, less boy-racer, is the Cadillac ATS in coupe and sedan form. Same 2.0L turbo 4 and same chassis as Camaro. 

Laserface
Laserface New Reader
9/18/22 12:52 p.m.

In reply to BlueInGreen - Jon :

A basketcase 318ti came up on Facebook Marketplace recently for $900. Interesting car, but the appearance is a little awkward. I suppose its something I would warm up to. As much as I said about not wanting too much power, the 318ti goes too far the other way. I'd be looking at a 6 cyl swap.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
9/18/22 1:03 p.m.
Laserface said:

In reply to z31maniac :

You and most people that see this, I'm sure. I really thought I'd be in the ND for a long time, but I guess the honeymoon is over.

I'm in a very rural area, and don't really have time to travel for a lot of test drives. Narrowing the playing field would help tremendously.

It wasn't meant to be dismissive. Comfort in a car is a very specific thing, there isn't an answer for personal preference. Lo Siento. 

dps214
dps214 Dork
9/18/22 1:06 p.m.

You've never sat in a new BRZ, have you? I really like a lot of things about them but the ergonomics for larger drivers is definitely not one of them. Some flavor of boxster/cayman is the answer. I really like my 981S, but I've driven a base model and if I wanted purely a fun street car I'd probably have gotten a base model, maybe even a pdk. The boxsters are usually tuned down a few hp below the caymans, which sounds like a win-win for you. The 718 might drive a bit better, but it's really splitting hairs at that point.

Laserface
Laserface New Reader
9/18/22 1:14 p.m.
John Welsh said:

Your list is much what I would suggest. 

On the Mustang and Camaro front, have you considered the 4cyl turbo versions?  Does the less power and less weight make them more tossable? 

I think I've eliminated the Mustang. I'd likely opt for a V6 Camaro over the 4cyl. The issue have with it is that the stuff that makes it great to drive like the magnaride is gated behind the SS trim.

z31maniac said:
Laserface said:

In reply to z31maniac :

You and most people that see this, I'm sure. I really thought I'd be in the ND for a long time, but I guess the honeymoon is over.

I'm in a very rural area, and don't really have time to travel for a lot of test drives. Narrowing the playing field would help tremendously.

It wasn't meant to be dismissive. Comfort in a car is a very specific thing, there isn't an answer for personal preference. Lo Siento

I absolutely took no offense, that is indeed a massive wall of text.

Laserface
Laserface New Reader
9/18/22 1:20 p.m.

In reply to dps214 :

For the GR86, I haven't been the new generation. I can't even find one to test drive. 

I should probably find the best base 981 I can and go with that. Fear of missing out has me worried about improvements to the 718. Supposedly the EPS system is better, the interior is better, PDK programming is continually improving, all adding up to a much nicer car. The 981 are priced very similar to early 718, holding value because they're the "last of an era".

dps214
dps214 Dork
9/18/22 2:16 p.m.

718 vs 981 seems personal preference more than anything else. The interior is nearly identical, the 718 has different HVAC vents which I don't like as much and a revised infotainment screen which I do like the look of a bit better. The only thing I really like about the 718 is the steering wheel, but that can be retrofitted into the 981 (which I might do to mine at some point). I've never been overly sensitive to steering feel but the 981 is pretty good. There's also the power steering plus package which is supposedly good. IIRC it's like $250 to have it upgraded. Even if the 718 steering is even better I don't see that being worth it. I don't know anything about the pdk tuning, but I haven't really heard anyone complain about the 981.

As far as price/value goes, I guess it depends on your outlook. 718s are cheap because nobody wants them, which is great for you as a buyer...but not if you ever want to sell it. Also you have to live with a Porsche that sounds like a Subaru, but I'm getting less objective there.

lnlds
lnlds Reader
9/18/22 2:51 p.m.

I think you're on the right track with the NC (NC2 with a power retracting hardtop sounds like it could be the ticket) , LFX RX-8, C5 corvette, and being concerned about having too much car.

I think it'll be worthwhile for you to drive some older hondas (prelude/integra gsr) to see if they scratch the itch or non-M bmws.

I've only been in the refreshed first gen 86, to me  it seemed more serious/competent (fun when pushed) as opposed to fun all the time.

John Welsh
John Welsh Mod Squad
9/18/22 3:19 p.m.

Maybe the new Nissan 400z is right for you if you don't want too much power. devil

Laserface
Laserface New Reader
9/18/22 4:34 p.m.

 

dps214 said:

718 vs 981 seems personal preference more than anything else. The interior is nearly identical, the 718 has different HVAC vents which I don't like as much and a revised infotainment screen which I do like the look of a bit better. The only thing I really like about the 718 is the steering wheel, but that can be retrofitted into the 981 (which I might do to mine at some point). I've never been overly sensitive to steering feel but the 981 is pretty good. There's also the power steering plus package which is supposedly good. IIRC it's like $250 to have it upgraded. Even if the 718 steering is even better I don't see that being worth it. I don't know anything about the pdk tuning, but I haven't really heard anyone complain about the 981.

As far as price/value goes, I guess it depends on your outlook. 718s are cheap because nobody wants them, which is great for you as a buyer...but not if you ever want to sell it. Also you have to live with a Porsche that sounds like a Subaru, but I'm getting less objective there.

I think the PDK programming is more for 987.2 vs 981. The steering wheel with the +/- buttons instead of paddles would definitely have to go. I don't know what they were thinking with that design. The sound is the least of my concerns, but resale on 718 is a good point. I think the 981 are already at the bottom of their depreciation curve. The ND has EPS, and I like it. I can't imagine Porsche would have designed a system more numb/worse than Mazda.

lnlds said:

I think you're on the right track with the NC (NC2 with a power retracting hardtop sounds like it could be the ticket) , LFX RX-8, C5 corvette, and being concerned about having too much car.

I think it'll be worthwhile for you to drive some older hondas (prelude/integra gsr) to see if they scratch the itch or non-M bmws.

I've only been in the refreshed first gen 86, to me  it seemed more serious/competent (fun when pushed) as opposed to fun all the time.

This is why I decided to crowd source. I haven't given Hondas any thought at all, except the S2000 which would have all the same issues I have in the ND. I've always had a soft spot for the late 90s Prelude. A quick search shows them to be plentiful and cheap, but generally ragged out. 

Bibs
Bibs New Reader
9/18/22 4:54 p.m.

Nothing to add, except the comment about the NC being different enough to consider an alternative. It may be slightly bigger than the ND, and perhaps slightly softer, but every complaint you have about the ND, I have for my NC. 
 

I love it in small doses, but it's best as a weekend car. Long trips, traffic, just wear me out. When you're not having fun, it's small, rides stiff, and it noisy. 

amg_rx7 (Forum Supporter)
amg_rx7 (Forum Supporter) SuperDork
9/18/22 5:28 p.m.

86 / BRZ or Boxster/ Cayman sound like the best options given what you wrote. 
Alternatively, test drive an S2000 or NSX of some flavor. 
Neither the Mustang or Camaro are particularly nimble and tossable. Just sold mine because it wasn't particularly fun or engaging to drive. Made cool noises though. 
Take some test drives or rent one from Turo and figure out what you like best

 

Cant hurt to test drive a good RX8 either 

ClearWaterMS
ClearWaterMS Reader
9/18/22 8:03 p.m.

A few options for small 2 seater /w smaller engines 

bmw z4 - new one is on offer /w a 4 cyl and 8 spd auto

audi TT (S and RS models if you want spicier) 

Alfa 4c

Mercedes SLK (might be a bit older)

Pontiac Solstace/Saturn SKY

If you want to spend a bit more money, aircooled porsche (SC or 3.2 is something that will cost alot but you probably won't lose money on)

DWNSHFT
DWNSHFT Dork
9/18/22 8:30 p.m.

Instead of test-driving cars, how about test-driving some seats?  Find a nice aftermarket seat that fits you, and fits the ND, plus some low-profile seat mounts.  Sure, that might set you back $1-2K but you keep all the awesomeness you already paid for in your ND.

GTwannaB
GTwannaB Dork
9/18/22 9:14 p.m.

All day driving, maybe not a seat on the floor car? GTI, Civic SI, E92 BMW. 

Laserface
Laserface New Reader
9/18/22 9:36 p.m.
amg_rx7 (Forum Supporter) said:

86 / BRZ or Boxster/ Cayman sound like the best options given what you wrote. 
Alternatively, test drive an S2000 or NSX of some flavor. 
Neither the Mustang or Camaro are particularly nimble and tossable. Just sold mine because it wasn't particularly fun or engaging to drive. Made cool noises though. 
Take some test drives or rent one from Turo and figure out what you like best

 

Cant hurt to test drive a good RX8 either 

I have the same issues in an S2000 as my car. I just don't fit. The NSX is simply beyond my price range. There's a 981 Boxster and Cayman and  718 Cayman on Turo roughly 1.5 hours from me. Nothing else on my list is available. 

That's a fantastic idea, though. A weekend in a car vs a short test drive could prevent me from making a post titled "Help me replace my (insert Miata replacement here)" in the future. 

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
9/18/22 9:39 p.m.

Mountainous terrain suggests you need lazy big-dog power in your life.  I suggest C6 from your list for this reason.  With a Magnusson supercharger, because why not.

 

The best fun I had this year was crossing those mountains with a luxo sedan on gummy tires and gobs of easily accessible, Sturm und Drang-less midrange power.  The car was always more capable than I felt like pushing the road so it was an absolute ball.  And keeping the revs down and exhaust quiet means you never attract the wrong kind of attention.

 

Check the fit, though.  I cannot even fit in an ND, while the C6 is pretty close to being uncomfortably tight.

Laserface
Laserface New Reader
9/18/22 9:50 p.m.
DWNSHFT said:

Instead of test-driving cars, how about test-driving some seats?  Find a nice aftermarket seat that fits you, and fits the ND, plus some low-profile seat mounts.  Sure, that might set you back $1-2K but you keep all the awesomeness you already paid for in your ND.

The issue with this is losing side airbags and occupant classification. I'm not willing to risk a safety issue. The other issue is that I'd lose the neat little headrest speakers.

I'm willing to admit I bought the wrong car. 

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