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SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
10/30/16 11:31 a.m.

OK, a little bench building...

I've decided I will one day build a nice V8 Miata. It's gonna take me a few more junk yard builds before I get there, but I am dreaming a bit (and budgeting).

I want a car that is primarily an overdone street driver with track capability. The primary emphasis will be ease of construction, availability of parts, cost, and ongoing maintenance. Budget $15K- $18K (not counting my labor). Bolt-on capability is important, after market support of various parts is also. I am willing to pay a bit more for quality, rather than cobbling together various junkyard patches.

What would you build and why?

  • What car?

  • What engine?

  • What transmission?

  • What management?

  • What rear end?

  • What other?

Some other thoughts...

The NA is nice in weight, but really outdated in styling. Not a fan. However, it also has the possibility of making the 25 year old barrier for emissions (not a big issue now, but may be in the future). Not a big fan of pop-up headlights.

I'm not sure I want to try to hack the Canbus of an NC or ND. If the issue is just gauges, I don't mind using entirely after market gauges.

It's hard to think about anything other than an LS3 (but I am open to suggestions). I will probably be looking at crate motors.

Really want a manual (which might mean T56, if I go LS3)

I like the potential of a PnP management system

Ready, set, go!

MrChaos
MrChaos HalfDork
10/30/16 12:00 p.m.

Paging Keith to the V8 Miata shaped courtesy phone, Keith to the V8 Miata shaped courtesy phone!

Huckleberry
Huckleberry MegaDork
10/30/16 12:22 p.m.

I have been thinking about this same thing ... I want something that does not exist. A modern, capable, over-powered TINY two seater with a very nice interior and serious business underneath. A little brutish when I want it to be, a track star with a pad/tire swap, but also capable of rolling into a quiet B&B with the Mrs and not having everyone hate (or even really notice me).

Miata is optional for me - but it is certainly in the "Easy Button" choices for a good handling starting point. Boxsters, MCoupes and even a re-chassis'd TR might do the job. Miata though seems most affordable and "right sized". I hate corvettes for their size otherwise they are "the package".

Subscribed.

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
10/30/16 12:29 p.m.
Huckleberry wrote: I have been thinking about this same thing ... I want something that does not exist. A modern, capable, over-powered TINY two seater with a very nice interior and serious business underneath. A little brutish when I want it to be, a track star with a pad/tire swap, but also capable of rolling into a quiet B&B with the Mrs and not having everyone hate (or even really notice me). Miata is optional for me - but it is certainly in the "Easy Button" choices for a good handling starting point. Boxsters, MCoupes and even a re-chassis'd TR might do the job. Miata though seems most affordable and "right sized". I hate corvettes for their size otherwise they are "the package". Subscribed.

Excellent description. That's what I want to build.

I'll add that I want it to be tame enough that my wife is not embarrassed or scared to drive it, but wild enough that I get a smile on my face every time I stomp on it.

BoxheadTim
BoxheadTim MegaDork
10/30/16 12:40 p.m.

LSx seems to be where the action is these days - a quick Google suggests that parts for the old popular conversion (Ford 302) seem to have dried up. Either that or my Google-fu sucks, which is also possible.

I'm not a big fan of the NC's looks (but then again I also prefer the NA over the NB) plus despite being not afraid of electronics I think a non-Canbus car might make things simpler.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
10/30/16 1:05 p.m.

You guys want the ND V8 You don't know it yet, but good lord is it good. I really, really love the way the ND is coming together, but it's waaay out of budget so it's not part of this discussion.

Monster still makes Ford swap parts, but I do think the LSx is the better choice for power density, compatibility with the stock geometry, ground clearance and parts availability. But not for sound, alas.

The newer the car, the easier the swap is from a mechanical standpoint. The NB has a leetle tiny bit more room in the engine bay and an electronic speedo. The NC has even more room with very little cutting (but more subframe reinforcement).

The newer the car, the more refined the end result as well. On the NA and NB, you never forget you're sharing a little car with a big engine. It's more of a hot rod feel. The NC has more of a GT vibe, it's got better isolation. But it also feels bigger and loses a bit of sharpness on track.

One thing people forget about the pop-up headlights is that they use standard 7" rounds. Loads of very functional upgrade options for those. 1999-00 headlights are pretty poor. 2001-05 are much better. NC are okay but have no upgrade path.

CAN isn't much of an issue with the magic box we have from MRS electronics. We haven't started NC development yet, but it should be fairly straightforward to keep the gauges working. We've already got PRHT and ABS sorted.

Regardless, I'd start with the car I wanted to finish with. If you like the looks of the NB, build an NB. It's the most popular platform right now. The NC PRHT is a staff favorite at FM because it's such a guilty pleasure, so easy. It works well on track too, although it feels bigger than the earlier cars and roll protection is an issue. But if you like the NB better, get the NB.

For LS3 crate engines, there are three choices.
Stock (aka the 430). This has stock manners. A fairly quiet purr at idle, very smooth, excellent street behavior.
E-ROD. Same engine but with more emissions monitoring. This is handy if you have emissions tests - it has rear O2 sensors, for example. There's no difference in actual emissions, but it gives more info.
LS376/480. Obsolete thanks to the..
LS376/525. This is the crazy version. Rump rump rump idle, razor-sharp throttle response and extra power up top. It's got about 40-50 more hp at the wheels and feels just nuts. I love this engine. It's got such an edge to it.

Engine management: get the GMPP kit for the 430. Same hardware is used with the 525 but it's more expensive there. Just change out the tune.

Alternately, you could adapt a harness and PCM from a factory car. It's well documented and pretty clean.

Trans is a T56, no question. Best option is the Magnum for better shifting and strength. You won't find this used in the wild as it's not an OE fitment so it's a judgement call as to whether the improvement in shift quality is worth the premium. We have found these transmissions are sensitive to fluid choice. As with so many aspects of these engines, GM got it right and the aftermarket struggles. Use a stock LS7 clutch.

Rear end, go with Camaro. Available as a kit for the NC, it'll probably be a kit for the NA/NB by the time you build it. The Ford 8.8 is big and heavy and the GM parts are surprisingly cheap new. IIRC you're looking for a 3.4 or so.

This page gives you a list of everything we use in a conversion. It's a good guide on what you'll need to address, even if you plan to DIY most of it.

All of our V8 cars are expected to be able to roll up to the track and perform. The biggest thing you need to deal with is brakes, these cars are hard on brakes due to the velocity involved.

ebonyandivory
ebonyandivory UltraDork
10/30/16 1:14 p.m.

Yes I read your original post!

Does it need to be a Miata? The reason I ask such a question is my curiosity regarding a possible kit car that someone started and can no longer finish. Those can be really nice if executed properly and you can pretty much choose any powertrain combo you choose with any aspiration and/or engine management.

If you're looking specifically for a Miata then disregard my inquiry!

Edit: I read Keith's response above and I almost feel silly asking what I did. His response gives me automotive butterflies!

penultimeta
penultimeta Reader
10/30/16 3:10 p.m.

Does it need to be v8? I keep thinking the J-series Honda engines make the perfect donors for the NA/NB. The J35 with proper work can easily pump out 250hp all day long. I've always thought these were overlooked. But maybe your looking for ALL THE POWR.

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
10/30/16 3:36 p.m.

Yes Keith, what I want is the V8 ND (preferably the RF). I've made the mistake of looking at what you are doing, and you have totally ruined me. If I dump the wife and sell a couple of kids, I MIGHT be able to afford one- don't think I haven't considered it!!

It does not need to be a Miata, but you are gonna have a hard time convincing me of things that are better.

It DOES have to be a V8. Sorry, no Honda engine will cut it.

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
10/30/16 3:40 p.m.

Keith:

The LS376/480 is still listed through Summit, at a respectable price. $7K for a complete long block, including a Hot Cam.

oldopelguy
oldopelguy UltraDork
10/30/16 3:41 p.m.

For that budget you can get a pretty decent LS1 Camaro as your donor, go through the engine for more updated performance, and then get something to put it in.

patgizz
patgizz UltimaDork
10/30/16 3:47 p.m.

GM engine management is about as plug and play as you can get. I'd pick anything but miata, install any LS, and be happy. You did see the smile on my face when i was driving my LS swapped Datsun at the challenge, right? Little car plus big motor equals fun times.

But for 18k budget i'd get a $1000 miata with no rust, 13k for stand alone LSA crate motor package, 1500 for a t56, and a couple grand left to make it work together.

Robbie
Robbie UltraDork
10/30/16 3:56 p.m.
penultimeta wrote: Does it need to be v8? I keep thinking the J-series Honda engines make the perfect donors for the NA/NB. The J35 with proper work can easily pump out 250hp all day long. I've always thought these were overlooked. But maybe your looking for ALL THE POWR.

My minivan is a j35 with 255 stock. (2005 honda ody).

But I think there are more issues than anticipated when tracking a transverse engine in a longitudinal configuration.

Lately I've been hankering for a miata that is the automotive version of a cafe racer. Utlra-light, but built to look good.

MrJoshua
MrJoshua UltimaDork
10/30/16 3:58 p.m.

You are getting really close to already built 3rd gen RX7 swaps for that money.

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
10/30/16 4:03 p.m.
MrJoshua wrote: You are getting really close to already built 3rd gen RX7 swaps for that money.

I'm seeing more like $24- $32K for a well done one.

tr8todd
tr8todd Dork
10/30/16 4:15 p.m.

This time last year I was right where you are, crunching numbers and trying to figure out the best cheapest way to go about it. I ended up buying a complete wrecked 2010 Camaro 2SS RS with 11,097 miles. It also had some go fast goodies on it already. Out the door price was $9,300. Another guy trying to do the same thing ended up spending just as much piecing together a 5.3 truck engine and T56. For the $9300 I get everything; engine, trans, clutch, electronics, gas pedal. I also get to sell off what ever Camaro stuff I don't want. Speaking of which anybody want a perfect condition orange and black leather interior, gigantic Brembo calipers, limited slip 3.45 independent rear, RS spoiler, sunroof, radiator, drivers side body panels, stainless long tube Dynapro headers, driveshaft, or anything else off this bad boy? By the time I'm done I will have the baddest fastest tube framed TR8 on the planet and no way I'm into it for more than $20K.

NOHOME
NOHOME PowerDork
10/30/16 4:18 p.m.

Have you stumbled upon this site yet:

http://miatav8.blogspot.ca/search?updated-min=2014-01-01T00:00:00-08:00&updated-max=2015-01-01T00:00:00-08:00&max-results=6

Mike is about as Grassroots as it gets. I am using his front subframe in the Molvo mostly because I was not in love with the Monster Miata exhaust routing.

Both the FM and Monster Miata kits are known quantities and well supported. I would say that the LSx option is going to run about 5k more than the 302 when it is all said and done. 15k is a realistic war chest for a DIY swap.

The opther option, assuming that this is still in the future, is an FRS LSx swap. They are being done as we speak and Vorshlag has tamed the evil canbus from what I hear. With the FRS engine bay being so wide, the Ford modular engine becomes an option if you want some 4 cam goodness. I will vouch for the chassis dynamics being very good and fitting the "Wife likes the car" requirement.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
10/30/16 4:21 p.m.
SVreX wrote: Keith: The LS376/480 is still listed through Summit, at a respectable price. $7K for a complete long block, including a Hot Cam.

Oh, you can still buy it. But since the 525 was introduced, there's absolutely no reason to.

MRS electronics is probably doing the CAN work for Vorshlag. I know "our" guy was working on one. Wasn't running when he showed up, but it is now.

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
10/30/16 4:27 p.m.
Keith Tanner wrote:
SVreX wrote: Keith: The LS376/480 is still listed through Summit, at a respectable price. $7K for a complete long block, including a Hot Cam.
Oh, you can still buy it. But since the 525 was introduced, there's absolutely no reason to. MRS electronics is probably doing the CAN work for Vorshlag. I know "our" guy was working on one. Wasn't running when he showed up, but it is now.

Maybe price??

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
10/30/16 4:28 p.m.

In reply to NOHOME:

OK, you've got a win there. I will put the FRS LSX swap on the list.

daeman
daeman HalfDork
10/30/16 4:31 p.m.

V8 or v10 swapped bmw z3's are pretty hot.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
10/30/16 4:34 p.m.
patgizz wrote: But for 18k budget i'd get a $1000 miata with no rust, 13k for stand alone LSA crate motor package, 1500 for a t56, and a couple grand left to make it work together.

The LSA is too big in at least two planes to fit a Miata. It's also kind of a bland engine in stock form and very expensive.

D2W
D2W Reader
10/31/16 6:43 p.m.

How about a LS Pontiac Solstice or Saturn Sky? Keep it all GM and you are also likely not to see another one around if you like to be unique.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
10/31/16 6:52 p.m.
SVreX wrote:
Keith Tanner wrote:
SVreX wrote: Keith: The LS376/480 is still listed through Summit, at a respectable price. $7K for a complete long block, including a Hot Cam.
Oh, you can still buy it. But since the 525 was introduced, there's absolutely no reason to. MRS electronics is probably doing the CAN work for Vorshlag. I know "our" guy was working on one. Wasn't running when he showed up, but it is now.
Maybe price??

Guess so. The 430 is $6528 at JEGS, 480 is $6950, the 525 is $7958. The only difference between the engines is the $477 camshaft. So I guess it comes down to how important that warranty is, or if you'd be willing to swap the stock cam back in if there was a problem

wspohn
wspohn HalfDork
10/31/16 7:18 p.m.

In reply to Keith Tanner:

How about a LS Pontiac Solstice or Saturn Sky? Keep it all GM and you are also likely not to see another one around if you like to be unique.

Actually, no - there are quite a few of those cars with V8 swaps, usually done by traditionalists for whom nothing will do but the sound of a V8. For others, the stock turbo engine can be easily arranged to put out 450 - 500 bhp, and many think it is neater to do it that way.

In fact what about a tuned turbo Ecotec in the Miata....?

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