Help us settle (or stoke) and argument.

If the Corvette had "European" build quality and a fancy interior, could it still be bargain priced (for a Supercar)? I've always thought it was a case of: cheap, fast, nicely appointed - pick two.

Curmudgeon wrote: Wow. Tom, you got the argument you wanted. WARNING HERESY ALERT Porsche does not impress me, like Mercedes and all the other luxobarge builders they just throw money at something and then wrap it in some soft plastic or hamburger wrapper to make it 'feel' good. Anyone can spend a wad on fancy materials to make a car 'feel' great. Not a problem. It takes real know how to build a Porsche beater on a budget and GM has done just that. END HERESY ALERT Even in its current form I'd take a 'Vette over a Porsche because of the price differential and the powertrain layout. I don't mind the flexy body panels, that's part of the Corvette heritage. But as I keep sayin', shrink the thing in weight and size 20% (okay, 15% would be OK too), make the interior liveable (and by that I mean make the seats fit real humans and fix the crappy rear visibility of the coupes, don't get all wound up over plastic) and keep the price near where it is, then GM would really knock the socks off of Porsche.

I always agree with less weight, smaller size but... this is a classic quantity over quality problem for Chevy. The car is what it is - and that is fast but with poor attention to detail. Would I drive one? Sure. But I know how to swap a steering rack and install Recaros. My ONLY beef is at $70k+ - should I really need to? Are there no suppliers they could turn to with all their might and influence to give me the same seats that came in a $35k EVO 10yrs ago - or source the same plastic that came in an Accord in the 90s? Really? No. They are just not interested because fat old guys with hairy sausage fingers buy them anyway as guido status symbols and guys like us buy them 2nd hand and gut them. They have no standards above sales.

If you think the Porsche guys just hurl wads of cash around without thought you need to go drive a 997. It does not just fel good - it IS good. They do more with less and they make a profit at it. A normally aspirated flat six making 444hp/ 325 ft/lbs at 3000lbs in 2010 (there is a new 4L out this year). It costs quite a bit more than a Z-06... 35% to be close but it is more powerful, smaller, lighter and has a nicer interior. Basically everything you asked for before declaring the Vette the winner. The difference is they are so good I still can't afford them 2nd hand because they don't depreciate into the low 20s in 5yrs.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:

Curmudgeon wrote: Wow. Tom, you got the argument you wanted. WARNING HERESY ALERT Porsche does not impress me, like Mercedes and all the other luxobarge builders they just throw money at something and then wrap it in some soft plastic or hamburger wrapper to make it 'feel' good. Anyone can spend a wad on fancy materials to make a car 'feel' great. Not a problem. It takes real know how to build a Porsche beater on a budget and GM has done just that. END HERESY ALERT Even in its current form I'd take a 'Vette over a Porsche because of the price differential and the powertrain layout. I don't mind the flexy body panels, that's part of the Corvette heritage. But as I keep sayin', shrink the thing in weight and size 20% (okay, 15% would be OK too), make the interior liveable (and by that I mean make the seats fit real humans and fix the crappy rear visibility of the coupes, don't get all wound up over plastic) and keep the price near where it is, then GM would really knock the socks off of Porsche.

I always agree with less weight, smaller size but... this is a classic quantity over quality problem for Chevy. The car is what it is - and that is fast but with poor attention to detail. Would I drive one? Sure. But I know how to swap a steering rack and install Recaros. My ONLY beef is at $70k+ - should I really need to? Are there no suppliers they could turn to with all their might and influence to give me the same seats that came in a $35k EVO 10yrs ago - or source the same plastic that came in an Accord in the 90s? Really? No. They are just not interested because fat old guys with hairy sausage fingers buy them anyway as guido status symbols and guys like us buy them 2nd hand and gut them. They have no standards above sales. If you think the Porsche guys just hurl wads of cash around without thought you need to go drive a 997. It does not just fel good - it IS good. They do more with less and they make a profit at it. A normally aspirated flat six making 444hp/ 325 ft/lbs at 3000lbs in 2010 (there is a new 4L out this year). It costs quite a bit more than a Z-06... 35% to be close but it is more powerful, smaller, lighter and has a nicer interior. Basically everything you asked for before declaring the Vette the winner. The difference is they are so good I still can't afford them 2nd hand because they don't depreciate into the low 20s in 5yrs.

How is 444hp 325 lb-ft more powerful than a 2010 Z06?

rotard wrote:

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:

Curmudgeon wrote: Wow. Tom, you got the argument you wanted. WARNING HERESY ALERT Porsche does not impress me, like Mercedes and all the other luxobarge builders they just throw money at something and then wrap it in some soft plastic or hamburger wrapper to make it 'feel' good. Anyone can spend a wad on fancy materials to make a car 'feel' great. Not a problem. It takes real know how to build a Porsche beater on a budget and GM has done just that. END HERESY ALERT Even in its current form I'd take a 'Vette over a Porsche because of the price differential and the powertrain layout. I don't mind the flexy body panels, that's part of the Corvette heritage. But as I keep sayin', shrink the thing in weight and size 20% (okay, 15% would be OK too), make the interior liveable (and by that I mean make the seats fit real humans and fix the crappy rear visibility of the coupes, don't get all wound up over plastic) and keep the price near where it is, then GM would really knock the socks off of Porsche.

I always agree with less weight, smaller size but... this is a classic quantity over quality problem for Chevy. The car is what it is - and that is fast but with poor attention to detail. Would I drive one? Sure. But I know how to swap a steering rack and install Recaros. My ONLY beef is at $70k+ - should I really need to? Are there no suppliers they could turn to with all their might and influence to give me the same seats that came in a $35k EVO 10yrs ago - or source the same plastic that came in an Accord in the 90s? Really? No. They are just not interested because fat old guys with hairy sausage fingers buy them anyway as guido status symbols and guys like us buy them 2nd hand and gut them. They have no standards above sales. If you think the Porsche guys just hurl wads of cash around without thought you need to go drive a 997. It does not just fel good - it IS good. They do more with less and they make a profit at it. A normally aspirated flat six making 444hp/ 325 ft/lbs at 3000lbs in 2010 (there is a new 4L out this year). It costs quite a bit more than a Z-06... 35% to be close but it is more powerful, smaller, lighter and has a nicer interior. Basically everything you asked for before declaring the Vette the winner. The difference is they are so good I still can't afford them 2nd hand because they don't depreciate into the low 20s in 5yrs.

How is 444hp 325 lb-ft more powerful than a 2010 Z06?

I was wondering that myself.

But we're comparing base model 997 to top model vette... (Well, barring ZR1)

rotard wrote: How is 444hp 325 lb-ft more powerful than a 2010 Z06?

It is 300lbs lighter.

3.8L @ 444/325 is also greater than 7.0L @ 505/?

More with less. Efficient, light... well executed.

Imagine how good that Vette could be with just changes I could make myself with $3k retail (instead of a poser sticker pack at $5k) ... those lazy motherberkeleyers piss me off because they could be truly sublime and still the same price - they choose not to be.

The cockpit of a $35,000 entry-level Three Series, C-Class or even CTS is an order of magnitude nicer than the $50,000 Corvette. But that's because the the Corvette is such a performer, right?

...But when a buyer is ponying up $68,440 (for the GS in the review), $75,000 (Z06) or $111,000 (ZR1) this argument stops holding water. For example, GM's own CTS-V has a much nicer interior than these three cars and at $65,000 is also less expensive.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:

rotard wrote: How is 444hp 325 lb-ft more powerful than a 2010 Z06?

It is 300lbs lighter. 3.8L @ 444/325 is also greater than 7.0L @ 505/?

300Lbs isn't going to make up for 60HP and 150TQ...

Javelin wrote:

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:

rotard wrote: How is 444hp 325 lb-ft more powerful than a 2010 Z06?

It is 300lbs lighter. 3.8L @ 444/325 is also greater than 7.0L @ 505/?

300Lbs isn't going to make up for 60HP and 150TQ...

So, hp/L is better than actual performance? I'm sorry, I must be on RX8club.com or something.

Edit: We're not talking about a base model 997, either. He's quoting the GT3 RS specs.

I still don't get why anyone cares about the interior of a driver's car besides the "touch points", eg the seats, shifter, steering wheel and pedals, and visibility. The moment I mash the pedals, I couldn't care less about the rest of the interior.

That makes sense in a car which you only have to spend time in on the weekends during an autocross or track event. If you're spending an hour or two sitting in it during your daily commute, you're going to care. The Grand Sport goes for M3 money. Ever driven, or even sat in, a new M3? It's not just nicer, I'm talking worlds apart. Makes the Vette look like a rental.

scardeal wrote: I still don't get why anyone cares about the interior of a driver's car besides the "touch points", eg the seats, shifter, steering wheel and pedals, and visibility. The moment I mash the pedals, I couldn't care less about the rest of the interior.

That's why i don't understand why you're all arguing about it instead of the other more important gripes that Alan had with the car in the first place.

Like i said before... for a bunch of people that don't care about the interior, we all like to argue about it.

So from what I can gather from these comments, you would all like the GS to be put together with more expensive components, with a bigger interior and larger more comfortable seats, a smaller displacement, more powerfull engine, and also be smaller and lighter overall. Oh, but don`t increase the price point because otherwise it would be as expensive as other so called supercars and then not eligable for consideration because its a GM. For the record, what should the interior be made of if not plastic. Rolled steel? Wood? Wood veneer? Carbon fibre?

Look around at the pos you are driving and what do you see? And no that's not wood in your SE/King Ranch/7 series or whatever. Its plywood glued onto ....plastic. Is that what GM should do? glue some plastic on? Or just glue on some fake carbon fibre.

What you should gather from these comments is that there's no compelling excuse for the Vette to have a crappier interior than its cheaper GM siblings from Cadillac and even Buick. The Vette is very good, but it could be Great, and I don't think that there is a compelling reason why GM stopped short with this car.

It is not as good a car as anything it tries to compete against in terms of "carness". If I wanted a POS interior that could claim 200MPH I'd buy a mustang and pocket the $25K. I want it all - and I could get it if I wanted to shell out $75k, then alter the steering setup and go seat/wheel shopping.

You can argue that power and handling trump all but they don't. It isn't really a race car as much as they would like you to think that. It is really all that you can claim when it comes to these cars though... so it is what people cling to I guess.

I'd rather hold the berkeleyers feet to the fire until they figure out how to make a decent steering rack calibration and give me an interior that isn;t embarrassing. Seriously - look at those berkeleying cheap ass delco buttons and blue 80s vintage LED texts. If you were shelling out $2600 a month would you be happy knowing they took those from the parts bin for a 92 Paresianne? I have those goddamn seats in my truck.

bearmtnmartin wrote: So from what I can gather from these comments, you would all like the GS to be put together with more expensive components, with a bigger interior and larger more comfortable seats, a smaller displacement, more powerfull engine, and also be smaller and lighter overall. Oh, but don`t increase the price point because otherwise it would be as expensive as other so called supercars and then not eligable for consideration because its a GM. For the record, what should the interior be made of if not plastic. Rolled steel? Wood? Wood veneer? Carbon fibre? Look around at the pos you are driving and what do you see? And no that's not wood in your SE/King Ranch/7 series or whatever. Its plywood glued onto ....plastic. Is that what GM should do? glue some plastic on? Or just glue on some fake carbon fibre.

I see a soft pleasant-feeling and looking plastic that's holding up just fine after 22 years.

Why is what i'm driving a POS, btw?

Mmmm...let me rub the plastic in your car baby...

bearmtnmartin wrote: Look around at the pos you are driving and what do you see?

A 6" factory Stack tach, VDO oil temp, oil pressure and volume. Wide, open hood between fenders. A leather wrapped wheel. BLack aluminum door panels with red nylon pull straps to open the door. Factory Recaro seats that hold you in place at 2g going into the toe of the boot or all 600 miles of highway to VIR. A leather wrapped shift knob molded into a nice feeling piece of quality plastic. Narry a rattle or squeak after all this time. Sometimes you hear oil burbling thru the pipe under the pass side door sill though.

Steering response like, well, like a 911... and it was still kicking the Vette's ass back in 1990 when it was new.

rotard wrote: Mmmm...let me rub the plastic in your car baby...

Oh, anytime!

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:

bearmtnmartin wrote: Look around at the pos you are driving and what do you see?

A 6" factory Stack tach, VDO oil temp, oil pressure and volume. Wide, open hood between fenders. A leather wrapped wheel. BLack aluminum door panels with red nylon pull straps to open the door. Factory Recaro seats that hold you in place at 2g going into the toe of the boot or all 600 miles of highway to VIR. A leather wrapped shift knob molded into a nice feeling piece of quality plastic. Narry a rattle or squeak after all this time. Sometimes you hear oil burbling thru the pipe under the pass side door sill though. Steering response like, well, like a 911... and it was still kicking the Vette's ass back in 1990 when it was new.

Hmmm...something tells me that an LT1 Vette would stomp it's ass. I think at best it's even with the SBC Vette.

rotard wrote:

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:

bearmtnmartin wrote: Look around at the pos you are driving and what do you see?

A 6" factory Stack tach, VDO oil temp, oil pressure and volume. Wide, open hood between fenders. A leather wrapped wheel. BLack aluminum door panels with red nylon pull straps to open the door. Factory Recaro seats that hold you in place at 2g going into the toe of the boot or all 600 miles of highway to VIR. A leather wrapped shift knob molded into a nice feeling piece of quality plastic. Narry a rattle or squeak after all this time. Sometimes you hear oil burbling thru the pipe under the pass side door sill though. Steering response like, well, like a 911... and it was still kicking the Vette's ass back in 1990 when it was new.

Hmmm...something tells me that an LT1 Vette would stomp it's ass.

Is that something is a voice only you can hear whispering to you... does it ever tell you anything you don't wish was true. Son of Sam had the same problem. It isn't the dog either

Before the C5s the Corvette was no match for anything except dudes in too much gold when they were liquored up. They need a lot of work to go fast. Now they are spectacular C5/C6s are monsters... but my 20 yr old 964 can still almost can hang with a well driven C5 Z-06. Don't knock the P-cars till you have tried them. Oh, and it does still have a nicer interior than a new Vette

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:

rotard wrote:

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:

bearmtnmartin wrote: Look around at the pos you are driving and what do you see?

A 6" factory Stack tach, VDO oil temp, oil pressure and volume. Wide, open hood between fenders. A leather wrapped wheel. BLack aluminum door panels with red nylon pull straps to open the door. Factory Recaro seats that hold you in place at 2g going into the toe of the boot or all 600 miles of highway to VIR. A leather wrapped shift knob molded into a nice feeling piece of quality plastic. Narry a rattle or squeak after all this time. Sometimes you hear oil burbling thru the pipe under the pass side door sill though. Steering response like, well, like a 911... and it was still kicking the Vette's ass back in 1990 when it was new.

Hmmm...something tells me that an LT1 Vette would stomp it's ass.

Is that something is a voice only you can hear whispering to you... does it ever tell you anything you don't wish was true. Son of Sam had the same problem. It isn't the dog either Before the C5s the Corvette was no match for anything except dudes in too much gold when they were liquored up. They need a lot of work to go fast. Now they are spectacular C5/C6s are monsters... but my 20 yr old 964 can still almost can hang with a well driven C5 Z-06. Don't knock the P-cars till you have tried them. Oh, and it does still have a nicer interior than a new Vette

I was trying to stoke. :( I think the C4 ZR1 wants a word with you. Also, I appreciate the bravado, but your 964 is not almost keeping up with a well-driven C5 Z06.

I've done the Pcar thing. I love them; I just don't have unrealistic expectations about their performance. I've spent a lot of time with a 1980 911 SC. I almost bought a 993 instead of the Z06. The Z06, simply put, is a better daily driver.

(troll) The main problem with the Corvette is that it only has two seats. Even the lowly RX-7 offered the option of 2+2 seating in 1986!!!!11!!!(/troll)

Since the 'Vette remains firmly in the tier of "cars I can't afford" it doesn't hold up well against the other cars in that category: Ferraris, Astons, high end Mercedes, etc.

Have any of you read what you are all posting?

Comparing a GM product with Porsche and Ferrari as opposed to Toyota?

GM wins.

alfadriver wrote: Have any of you read what you are all posting? Comparing a GM product with Porsche and Ferrari as opposed to Toyota? GM wins.

Wasn't the last time Toyota made a 2 seater sports car 2005? Or will we compare it with the $375k LF-A?

alfadriver - I've read the entire thread. Have you read any of my posts?

Vettes are priced from $50,000 to well over $100,000. There are AMG's, M cars, V cars and other options in that price range that also post big power numbers and are also much more refined. Even the Regal and LaCross have better interiors. GM is cutting corners with the Vette.