Simma down now, folks. It's just a silly internet debate. Blanket statements like "x is faster than y" are often easy to disprove. No need to get flipping upset. 
Tracks where the Caterham could beat a Z06-
Grand Junction Motor Speedway
Ocala Grand Prix
Tracks where the Z06 will beat a Caterham-
Daytona Int'l Speedway
Virginia Int'l Speedway
Nurburgring
92CelicaHalfTrac wrote:Javelin wrote: Not that this is the greatest source nor purveyor of all that is awesome, but: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_N%C3%BCrburgring_Nordschleife_lap_times#Lap_times Let's see, the C6 Z06 laid down a 7:22.68. That's faster than a GT2RS, GT-R, Enzo, Zonda F, Carrera GT, 458 Italia, Konessitig, GT3RS, LFA, etc, etc, etc... The highest Caterham is the same-price R500 Superlight at a 7:55, which is the same time as a C5 Z06.You said ANY racetrack. Let's look at times for a track that doesn't have an eleventy million mile long 200mph+ back straight.
Exactly. Let's compare stats of the Z06 versus the R500.
R500
0-60= 2.88 secs
0-100= 7.0 secs
.236hp/lb
Top Speed 150mph
$61,000
Z06
0-60= 3.6 secs
0-100= 7.9 secs
Top Speed 198mph
.159hp/lb
$75,000
92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: http://www.bbc.co.uk/topgear/show/powerlaps.shtmlCaterham R500 1.17.9 Corvette ZR1 1.20.4 Corvette Z06 1.22.4 There's gotta be an explanation for that. While their track is no Nurburgring, it's not exactly a tight and technical autox, either. I mean.... that's a HUGE gap for a track that short.
original Z06 on all seasons man. The new Z06 has the Z07 lightweight/carbon brakes package and the similar tires. The R500SL is also on Avon race slicks.
scardeal wrote: If you value your labor time, then methinks the Caterham no longer appears quite the bargain compared to the fully assembled Corvette. But that's just me. The website should say in big bold letters: "Some assembly required."
Actually the Caterham R500 comes fully assembled minus engine assembly and IIRC the Caterham dealer will do that for not a lot of money.
Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:Javelin wrote: In reply to Giant Purple Snorklewacker: Read it all bubba: "with optional super-slick track DOT competition tires (Michelin Pilot Sport Cup Zero Pressure)". Buy it equipped like that at your local GM dealer today.I'm not the one crying foul. I never go to the track without slicks. I'm just saying - the much faster times the GT2 RS set were on the stock tires. I think the Porsche guys were crying foul even though they were faster anyway because they are German and like to be the only ones cheating. I just remembered it because it hit the Bridge-To-Gantry blog and because it smacked of underhanded deceitfulness.
Say what? The GT2RS only comes with R-Comp tires, stock. The Z06/Z07 was the actual factory tires, which are the same type (basically R-comps). Both are DOT legal and factory equipped. What could possibly be the contention?
Anyway the point of my post which brought up the R500 was I would rather have the R500 over the 'Vette but I would rather have the 'Vette over most any cars even close to that price.
Why can't we insult Corvettes based upon their own shortcomings? Why do we have to drag poor old Caterham into this?
Corvetttes have an abundance of power but a dearth of interior quality. If that makes you happy, have at it.
Javelin wrote:92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: http://www.bbc.co.uk/topgear/show/powerlaps.shtmloriginal Z06 on all seasons man. The new Z06 has the Z07 lightweight/carbon brakes package and the similar tires. The R500SL is also on Avon race slicks.
Power does well on their track though... even the ZR1 couldn't keep up.
I'm not saying that the R500 is unbeatable.... i'm just saying a blanket statement that it won't win anywhere, and that everyone who thinks otherwise is smoking something....
Is a bit strong and ill-informed. At best.
93EXCivic wrote:92CelicaHalfTrac wrote:Exactly. Let's compare stats of the Z06 versus the R500. R500 0-60= 2.88 secs 0-100= 7.0 secs .236hp/lb Top Speed 150mph $61,000 Z06 0-60= 3.6 secs 0-100= 7.9 secs Top Speed 198mph .159hp/lb $75,000Javelin wrote: Not that this is the greatest source nor purveyor of all that is awesome, but: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_N%C3%BCrburgring_Nordschleife_lap_times#Lap_times Let's see, the C6 Z06 laid down a 7:22.68. That's faster than a GT2RS, GT-R, Enzo, Zonda F, Carrera GT, 458 Italia, Konessitig, GT3RS, LFA, etc, etc, etc... The highest Caterham is the same-price R500 Superlight at a 7:55, which is the same time as a C5 Z06.You said ANY racetrack. Let's look at times for a track that doesn't have an eleventy million mile long 200mph+ back straight.
Far, far more telling figures:
R500SL is 263HP/177TQ (Euro, so higher) at 1136 Lbs. Add in a 150Lb driver and you have 7.27Lbs per TQ.
Z06/Z07 is 505HP/470TQ (SAE, so lower than Euro measures) at 3199 Lbs. Add in the same driver and you have 7.13 Lbs per TQ.
R500SL is 42,000 Pounds, which is ~$65,600 at straight conversion, plus assembly and importation.
The Z07 has been measured at 1.2G's of sustained lateral grip.
So for the same money as a 7-year warrantied car with A/C that you can drive every day, you might be able to keep up for a lap or two in your kit-car scaffolding collection, which you have to trailer to the track. Yeah, that makes sense...
Buying a Z06 in the first place doesn't make "sense" in the traditional sense of the word anyways....
If i want a toy.... i'll buy a toy.
92CelicaHalfTrac wrote:Javelin wrote:Power does well on their track though... even the ZR1 couldn't keep up.92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: http://www.bbc.co.uk/topgear/show/powerlaps.shtmloriginal Z06 on all seasons man. The new Z06 has the Z07 lightweight/carbon brakes package and the similar tires. The R500SL is also on Avon race slicks.
Oh, so now we can respond without addressing the actual point (tires used)? Oh, sweet!
I stand by statement. The RACE tired, NOT street legal, KIT CAR R500SL cannot beat the Z06/Z07 on any car track. The only spec the R500 wins is a meaningless acceleration from a standing start. The Z06 out corners, out brakes, out speeds, and can out-accelerate on the trot the Caterham, for the same price and with a warranty.
But god forbid it has some corporate switchgear or a plastic dashboard, because that means it's obviously still GM crap!
What the berkeley is being argued here? The Corvette is really fast and relatively cheap. That super fast Z06 is going to cost you $90,490 + tax. It's not the most well built car, it's not the most comfortable car, and it's not going to work any miracles and always win every race.
It is hard to go that fast for the same or less money in a new car that is road legal. I don't like Corvettes at all - from every single subjective standpoint they leave me cold.
Why do lap times matter so much when we're talking about street cars anyway? $90,000 can buy you a race car if lap times are what matter most.
Javelin wrote:92CelicaHalfTrac wrote:Oh, so now we can respond without addressing the actual point (tires used)? Oh, sweet! I stand by statement. The RACE tired, NOT street legal, KIT CAR R500SL cannot beat the Z06/Z07 on any car track. The *only* spec the R500 wins is a meaningless acceleration from a standing start. The Z06 out corners, out brakes, out speeds, and can out-accelerate on the trot the Caterham, *for the same price* and with a warranty. But god forbid it has some corporate switchgear or a plastic dashboard, because that means it's obviously still GM crap!Javelin wrote:Power does well on their track though... even the ZR1 couldn't keep up.92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: http://www.bbc.co.uk/topgear/show/powerlaps.shtmloriginal Z06 on all seasons man. The new Z06 has the Z07 lightweight/carbon brakes package and the similar tires. The R500SL is also on Avon race slicks.
Um. Wow. Ok.
/me steps away from the thread.
Tom Heath wrote: Simma down now, folks. It's just a silly internet debate. Blanket statements like "x is faster than y" are often easy to disprove. No need to get flipping upset.
Yeah, but where else can you go from a complaint about an expensive sticker package to comparing C6 Z06's to Caterhams?
I love this bar but (sometimes) the patrons should have stopped a few sips ago.
nderwater wrote: alfadriver - I've read the entire thread. Have you read any of my posts? Vettes are priced from $50,000 to well over $100,000. There are AMG's, M cars, V cars and other options in that price range that also post big power numbers and are also much more refined. Even the Regal and LaCross have better interiors. GM is cutting corners with the Vette.
Okay, I'll buy that. But I will submit that the money they trimmed from the interior and fancy schmancy LED gauges and stuff went into powertrain development and their 24 Hours of LeMans race program. Pretty much the same thing any of us would do. Still needs better seats and rear visibility, though.
Look, I am no big fan of GM/Ford/Chrysler's so called 'engineering', particularly when compared to the Japanese. But you gotta give props to the Corvette for entering Ferrari performance territory for a damn sight less money. And you can get it fixed anywhere. 'I found a great Ferrari mechanic and he's only 250 miles away. He works a full 3 days a week, gets my car back to me in around 6 weeks to 2 months on average and unlike most of them will spit on me only if I tip less than 20%.' (Says the guy who harbors major lust for a Lotus Elise. )
I wonder what the GM brass reading this are thinking at the moment?
Javelin wrote: Oh, so now we can respond without addressing the actual point (tires used)? Oh, sweet! I stand by statement. The RACE tired, NOT street legal, KIT CAR R500SL cannot beat the Z06/Z07 on any car track. The *only* spec the R500 wins is a meaningless acceleration from a standing start. The Z06 out corners, out brakes, out speeds, and can out-accelerate on the trot the Caterham, *for the same price* and with a warranty. But god forbid it has some corporate switchgear or a plastic dashboard, because that means it's obviously still GM crap!
What a bunch of bullE36 M3! The Caterham R500 is number one not really a kit car. You get it fully assembled minus the engine so technically it is but that is like saying the Noble is a kit car. Two the Caterham R500 is completely street legal. And the only thing a Z06 is better at is top speed and having a warranty. I am assuming you have never been in R500. The old R500 held the record for 0-100-0 for a while (bettering the McClaren F1) and the new one is faster. I really do like the Corvette but it doesn't beat the R500 in most of those things you said.
MG Bryan wrote: What the berkeley is being argued here?
Whether or not it is ok to criticize the Vette for it's terrible bits even though it is pretty awesome.
Or... whatever these guys are bickering about now... but if it looks they are winning I'm going to trot a Hitler reference right the berkeley out here, pronto.
Curmudgeon wrote: I wonder what the GM brass reading this are thinking at the moment?
"berkeley it, we can't please everybody. Let's keep making cheap, fast cars."
At least that's what I hope.
To the thread participants with a bee in their bonnet and a chip on their shoulder- Take it to PM, you're wasting an interesting discussion with the "I know more about cars than you" game. Please.
Tom Heath wrote:Curmudgeon wrote: I wonder what the GM brass reading this are thinking at the moment?"berkeley it, we can't please everybody. Let's keep making cheap, fast cars." At least that's what I hope.
Nah, they are looking for all the missing korean brake pads or blowing bailout money on Vegas strippers. The GM brass probably think Ford makes the Vette.
I own a C6 Z06 and would agree that corners were cut to get it to the price point it's in, but I'm glad that they were. If the car cost the same, but had a nicer interior and crappier performance... there's no way I would have bought it. A big part of my purchase came down to which car was able to offer the best bang for the buck, and the Z06 was a clear winner. They got all the important things right, and were able to cut costs on stuff I don't care about anyways. I also paid around $40k for my car used, not the $75k+ it is when new. I considered Elises/Exiges, 911s, Caymans, Vipers, NSXs, and various kit cars (FF Cobras, Lotus 7 clones).
The factors that lead me to buy the Z06: It's unbelievably fast, it handles great, it's comfortable and practical, it's reliable, insurance is dirt cheap, and parts aren't particularly expensive if anything does go wrong. It's just an all around good car.
oldsaw wrote: I love this bar but (sometimes) the patrons should have stopped a few sips ago.
I'm bored at work today so I'd rather argue about cars I haven't driven with people I've never met. Hey, it's my birthday, I'll do what I want!
93EXCivic wrote:Javelin wrote: Oh, so now we can respond without addressing the actual point (tires used)? Oh, sweet! I stand by statement. The RACE tired, NOT street legal, KIT CAR R500SL cannot beat the Z06/Z07 on any car track. The *only* spec the R500 wins is a meaningless acceleration from a standing start. The Z06 out corners, out brakes, out speeds, and can out-accelerate on the trot the Caterham, *for the same price* and with a warranty. But god forbid it has some corporate switchgear or a plastic dashboard, because that means it's obviously still GM crap!What a bunch of bullE36 M3! The Caterham R500 is number one not really a kit car. You get it fully assembled minus the engine so technically it is but that is like saying the Noble is a kit car. Two the Caterham R500 is completely street legal. And the only thing a Z06 is better at is top speed and having a warranty. I am assuming you have never been in R500. The old R500 held the record for 0-100-0 for a while (bettering the McClaren F1) and the new one is faster. I really do like the Corvette but it doesn't beat the R500 in most of those things you said.
Are you serious dude? All those specs came from Caterham's and GM's websites! The R500SL is an awesome car to be sure, but it's still a damn kit car that's $61,057 without the engine!! It won't be street legal in some states (CA, OR, WA, NJ, NY, etc), you have to pay to have the engine installed (after you buy the engine), and it's still not going to beat the Z06/Z07 man! Again, the ONLY published stat the R500 is faster is acceleration from a standing start, which is only good for drag racing.
Yavuz wrote: ... insurance is dirt cheap ...
Really? This is the most surprising thing I've seen in this thread. I would have expected that to be the complete opposite.
Tom Heath wrote:Curmudgeon wrote: I wonder what the GM brass reading this are thinking at the moment?"berkeley it, we can't please everybody. Let's keep making cheap, fast cars." At least that's what I hope. To the thread participants with a bee in their bonnet and a chip on their shoulder- Take it to PM, you're wasting an interesting discussion with the "I know more about cars than you" game. Please.
For cereal? No name calling, no nasty words, and we have to take it outside? Am I on the wrong message board?
In reply to Javelin:
PM Sent. (See how easy that was?)
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