How can I make my Miata faster?

Keith Tanner said:

It's been noted before but it has to be reiterated - top SM drivers are fast, and they're in cars that have been obsessively developed. Simply having a car that's about the same weight with less power and a decent suspension bolted on does not automatically make the car as fast as a SM with the same driver. Then, of course, you're trying to compare to the fastest of the SM drivers on their best day. I don't think this car is competitive with a SM as it sits. It's not as stiff, it's tall, and it's on worse tires. I don't know how much work has been put into corner weighting or shock tuning. Having a nice set of shocks is only the first step.

Tires are clearly the largest factor.

By stiffness do you men the chassis (cage), or the spring rates?  The quoted Xida rates are actually higher than the SM ones.

And yes, the point about SM lap records is very valid.  Picking Laguna Seca (because it's the closest to my house and I know the most about it) the SM lap record is a 1:45.something.  That's the record -- the best driver on the best day, in the best set-up car, with brand new tires and a perfect lap, race laps are often in the 47/48 range.  SMs running at typical track days using non-Hoosier tires (RA1s, NT01s, things like that) are doing 50s or 51s.

When I say I think CrashDummy's car is probably as fast as a Spec Miata already, it's based on what I've seen similarly-equipped cars doing at typical track days and comparing them to Spec Miatas running at those same days.  No, it's not likely to beat the SM lap record as described.

There are several of us on here who are instructing and or coaching. If you have some in car video and are willing to share it (we promise to be nice) we can probably tell you straight away of it's a case of the loose nut behind the wheel.  The biggest area I find for driver improvement is the way they come off the brakes, 90% of drivers do this to abruptly. It even goes beyond trail braking, many folks manage trail braking pretty well but abruptly end their trail braking. That last 5-10ft is the key to corner speed and faster laps.

The other area is talking through why your doing what your doing in various spots on track.  Again 75% of drivers have a tendency to hammer away at it without any forethought.

Ask yourself do you know what rpm in what gear you are turning on the exit of every corner and or section of the track. If you don't know this I'd suggest you're leaving lap time on the table.

With all that said I always go back to are you having fun? If you are going 3-4 seconds faster isn't going to bring more fun, your mind/ego might be happier but as pointed out in this thread none of us are world champions, so fun is the goal here.

codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

Keith Tanner said:

It's been noted before but it has to be reiterated - top SM drivers are fast, and they're in cars that have been obsessively developed. Simply having a car that's about the same weight with less power and a decent suspension bolted on does not automatically make the car as fast as a SM with the same driver. Then, of course, you're trying to compare to the fastest of the SM drivers on their best day. I don't think this car is competitive with a SM as it sits. It's not as stiff, it's tall, and it's on worse tires. I don't know how much work has been put into corner weighting or shock tuning. Having a nice set of shocks is only the first step.

Tires are clearly the largest factor.

By stiffness do you men the chassis (cage), or the spring rates?  The quoted Xida rates are actually higher than the SM ones.

And yes, the point about SM lap records is very valid.  Picking Laguna Seca (because it's the closest to my house and I know the most about it) the SM lap record is a 1:45.something.  That's the record -- the best driver on the best day, in the best set-up car, with brand new tires and a perfect lap, race laps are often in the 47/48 range.  SMs running at typical track days using non-Hoosier tires (RA1s, NT01s, things like that) are doing 50s or 51s.

When I say I think CrashDummy's car is probably as fast as a Spec Miata already, it's based on what I've seen similarly-equipped cars doing at typical track days and comparing them to Spec Miatas running at those same days.  No, it's not likely to beat the SM lap record as described.

By stiffness I meant structure thanks to the cage.

I drive a Spec Miata and I also have a daily driver NB on RE071's.   The Spec Miata SM7 or SM7.5 will run away from those Potenza's.  There's no comparison.  The SM7.5's are about $850/set (over $900 mounted plus wheels) so you're going to spend a bunch for decent rubber that may not last the summer.  Not telling you what to do, just keep that in mind.  

Keep an eye on your chassis set-up and toe (both front and rear).  I have different set-ups for every track and its free to spend time getting your adjustments right to match your driving.  Both don't cost you anything besides more track time!

Snrub said:

Aero eg. air dam. Maybe splitter, wing, although the splitter might not be viable for your street use.

Eluding to the implications of the weight loss discussion above - It's definitely tougher if you want it to be a streetable car. Since you run a hard top, is the soft top still installed in the car? Passenger seat?

Totally agree with aero as a good way to move forward. However, I disagree about the splitter and air dam. Do a flat bottom and a diffuser instead. 

No air (air dam/splitter) under the car is certainly better than slow air, but fast air under the car is best. 

Flat bottom and diffuser is one of those things that's easier said than done. Especially if you're worried about heat buildup in the tunnel. We did some instrumented testing in that regard a while back and it was ugly. Then there's that pesky exhaust and differential in the way of the diffuser...

The nice thing about an air dam and splitter is that it also decreases drag whilst improving cooling. It's pretty much all win other than ground clearance.

My wing was worth something like 2s at our local track with a 70s lap time and an average speed of 48 mph. I built removable mounts for it so I can easily bolt it on and off for track days. You would want to pair that with some good front aero, though - I had to go as far as dive planes to balance the car in high speed sweepers and they're an aerodynamic blunt instrument. I have the horsepower to deal with it, this car does not.

Don't forget the largest piece of ballast in the car... the person in the drivers seat, drop a few pounds and it will help the car weight less. Techincally the easiest way.

Robbie (Forum Supporter) said:

Totally agree with aero as a good way to move forward. However, I disagree about the splitter and air dam. Do a flat bottom and a diffuser instead. 

No air (air dam/splitter) under the car is certainly better than slow air, but fast air under the car is best. 

This seems pretty convincing:  https://www.verus-engineering.com/blog/cfd-cases-4/post/air-dam-or-splitter-a-closer-look-12 The craziest NA/NB Miata track builds all have an air dam. eg. easy ones to find would be Ryan Passey's, Blackbird Fabworx, general super-miata builds, etc. I have materials purchased do to an air dam on my Miata, but it hasn't happened yet. There's a great, crazy long thread on miataturbo.net on aero.

You can get the bulk of the gains without the seriously ugly SuperMiata nose by using a GV-style front lip with a splitter - that's cases 4 vs 6 in the aero analysis. For a street car, that may be a better option.

First thing you should realize is that those Spec Miata racers would already drive your car faster than a Spec Miata on similar tires.  So the hardest part about this is being clear about your goal from the outset.  The worst way to solve a problem is to throw money at it blindly, and that's the path you're headed down.  Do you want to race eventually?  Time trials?  Or just do track days and have fun?

I have an interesting frame of reference on this.  Four years ago I started as a track day guy and built a street/track Miata with all the go-fast parts, including turbo.  I had fun.  I went fast.  I took risks that probably weren't smart considering it didn't have decent safety gear.  I broke things often and got tired of fixing them.  I came to the realization that in a lot of ways the (substantial) money I spent on this endeavor actually held me back as a driver.  I also realized that anyone can buy speed if their budget is big enough.  I sold the turbo toy.

Then I bought a rough-and-ready 1.6L Spec Miata, with the goal of really improving my driving.  I was unprepared for just how slow a Spec Miata actually is in the hands of a bad driver.  We're talking 10 seconds/lap slower than my fancy Miata.  A Spec Miata is an inherently slow car.  Low power, terrible aero, adequate suspension, small contact patch, no ABS or driver aids.  My driving has since improved by leaps and bounds, but only because I realized how much it needed to.  I'm working on my competition license to race in the spring, but I still have a long way to go.

So you're at a crossroads- either buy speed with gear, or buy speed with skill. 

If you choose gear, sell the Miata and buy a faster car.  It's more cost effective in the long run than trying to creep up on speed one part at a time.  Trying to make a Miata fast with intakes, suspension bushings, etc. is an exercise in futility.  You can make it fast with a turbo setup but be prepared to spend many hours tuning and troubleshooting.  You'll never have stock-like reliability on the track.

If you want skill, do what the racers do.

- Make the car a 100% track car.  Take away all the compromises that keep it from being just right for the job.  This means getting a trailer and vehicle that can tow it.

- Go all-in on safety.  Full cage, race seat and harness, HANS, fire suit, etc.  You have to push some limits to get faster and it's dumb to do that in a car that's not safe.

- Budget for the good tires and brakes.  Running Hoosiers vs. 200tw tires is a night/day difference in a low power car.  Grip and braking are the only advantages you have.

- Get as much coaching and instruction as you can.  It will be humbling, and it will totally transform your driving.

- Spend whatever money you have left on turning as many laps as possible.  Malcolm Gladwell's 10,000 hour rule is strongly in play here.

I did a track day in my SM last weekend.  I was using two-year old Hoosiers that were almost down to the cords.  I was stomping all over a guy in a tricked-out ND2 Miata with RE-71's, and running neck/neck with some pretty fast BMW's and Corvettes.  The car had nothing to do with it.  It was way more rewarding for me than going fast in the tricked-out turbo car.

In reply to ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) :

Ding Ding Ding Ding.................we have a winner.

We have this discussion all the time but I'd rather climb out of a slow ass car knowing I drove it for all it's worth then drive a really fast car 75% of it's potential.

I just want to chime in with the recommendations for a supercharger.  We had two almost identical NB miatas.  The one with the jackson racing supercharger was so much faster.  When switiching from car to car, you def knew which had the supercharger.

Thanks guys. This is a great discussion. A few people mentioned a splitter so I'll definitely be looking into that a little bit. 

There are definitely faster tires than the RE71R. The cost and annoyance vs. benefit of a dedicated track tire is something that I'll have to think more about. 
It sounds like as far as horsepower it's really an all or nothing thing; doesn't sound like there's good value in non-forced induction options.  

Snrub 

Since you run a hard top, is the soft top still installed in the car? Passenger seat?

Soft top has been removed. Passenger seat comes out when the rules allow it. 

captdownshift 

Also what rear end do you have in it currently, and do you have a torsion? 

Stock torsen

Tom1200 said:

There are several of us on here who are instructing and or coaching. If you have some in car video and are willing to share it (we promise to be nice) we can probably tell you straight away of it's a case of the loose nut behind the wheel.  

I'll never say no to free coaching! I started taking some limited video this year. 
2 Good Laps at Thompson (2nd lap is very close to my fastest ever): https://youtu.be/assEB7D5SeY

Good lap at Watkins Glen (I know there's more speed if I use the curbs in the bus stop but I try to save some abuse on the car when I'm 5 hours from home): https://youtu.be/cKnw689ue9g

3 Decent Laps at Palmer (about 1 second off of my best lap; all 3 have mistakes): https://youtu.be/nkVhIBt-TmQ

Decent Laps at NHMS (a little off my best lap; tires were toast at this event): https://youtu.be/YsUNj1q-hzQ

MrChaos said:

Don't forget the largest piece of ballast in the car... the person in the drivers seat, drop a few pounds and it will help the car weight less. Techincally the easiest way.

I'm working on it! But I know even 20lbs will be a pretty minimal improvement in lap time. It will make a big difference in my 5K time though! 

this....and a lot of  duct tape      

Tom1200 said:

In reply to ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) :

Ding Ding Ding Ding.................we have a winner.

We have this discussion all the time but I'd rather climb out of a slow ass car knowing I drove it for all it's worth then drive a really fast car 75% of it's potential.

That's what the guys with slow cars always say ;)

75% of a really fast car's potential can be a very different ride. Like, "so THAT'S where Turn 1 is at Laguna Seca...". And then you extract more than 75% and things get really interesting with some challenges you never see with a low power car, like how to precisely meter torque output to match available traction instead of just whacking the throttle open. Taming a beast can be just as much fun as playing with a kitten.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

I think you can learn some really interesting things in a slow car, but like you said - there are different things to be learned when you are in a power car. I drove the nuts off my 1.6 stock engined car for nearly the whole covid season this year with my track club membership. I mean hours at a time. I jumped back into my Exocet after making minimal changes and immediately (on much older tires than my previous PB) dropped 3 seconds on my previous PB on a 2.5 minute track. 

On topic, I would invest in a drivers club if any of your tracks have one. Nothing is a better investment than seat time for the most part. I was 100% sure I couldn't drive my 1.6 Miata any faster at my track, and then I invested further into data analysis and found another second by plugging together lots of tiny adjustments. I would have never been able to find that time without the track time and data together.

In reply to accordionfolder :

What system did you use?

In reply to CrashDummy :

So I can tell you were most of the gap is between you and the Spec Miatas and you already touched on it. You're leaving a ton of room between the car and the kerbs. 

You could use more of the kerb without pounding them but I think you may also have a less than optimal set up, not bad but less than optimal. You are getting onto opposite lock and awful lot after the apex of several corners. I've got no problem with the car being a loose on corner entry but once you are past the apex its just killing your speed. You can really see it how.much speed you scrub on the banking at NHMS (yes the tires are toast but that makes it even more apparent). If the set up were slightly less edgy you be able to use more of the road at the apex as well as get a better drive out onto the straights.

You are off the brakes a bit early in various places but I suspect that's due to having to balance the oversteer. 

The one actaul driver thing I would encourage you to change is to tell you to stop moving your hand position on the steering wheel. If you have to put both hands above the wheel spokes fine but stop moving them around. Shuffling tends to be less smooth then fixed hand position.

You obviously have good car control skills. After watching the videos I'd say get a basic data system (if you don't have it already) and as mentioned start fine tuning.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Keith in my gutless Datsun if you whack the throttle open you get instant understeer. This teaches you to tip into the throttle gingerly. It's not as apparent as some of the 750hp Vipers I've driven on track but it still teaches you not to be a gorilla with the gas pedal. 

A lot of good info has been covered, and it sounds like you're already working on the nut behind the wheel, so I'll concentrate on the hardware.  Here's my $.02:

Low hanging fruit: 

Wheels/tires.... step up to 225/45-15 on 9's.  Use a tire trailer if necessary.  I like the Toyo RRs...  less expensive than Hoosiers, but better than the super 200s.  Drive to the track on 205/50-15 Conti ECS.  You can use those if it rains.

Brakes... I ran Hawk HP+ for a while when I still had the stock brakes and they really held the car back.  So, NB Sport brakes, or an aftermarket setup up front and track pads all around will make pretty good difference.  11.75 Willwoods/Stoptech up front and Wilwood 4 pots on sport rotors out back and you'll have all the brakes you'll ever need.  The right pads for the track will suck on the street... Wilwoods make it a 10 minute job to swap them.

Aero will get you some benefit, but you don't want to try to run a Supermiata style airdam/splitter on the street... trust me.  Keith's suggestion of the GV lip + a BBFW lexan spoiler should provide some downforce while reducing drag.

Any weight you can get out of the car.

Power:

If you want to stay NA, and native Miata, an NB2 (VVT) swap is pretty effective.  I don't know if you've dyno'd your car, but a lot of higher mileage 1.8s drop under triple digits as the horses eventually escape the corral...  A stock VVT with standalone and header will get you 130-145rwhp, more on E85.  This will be a big bump from a worn out stock NA, but it's still a slow car.

I recently swapped to a 6 speed, which on paper should be faster, but I haven't seen the payoff in lap times yet...  but I didn't get a lot of laps in this year, either.

Big(ger) Power:

This is the point I'm at...  my NA is a blast to drive, and I'm about 2 sec under SM records at the tracks where I can directly compare time.  But I do find myself wanting more power.  As soon as I finish a full cage install... I've been running with a rollbar, 6pt/race seat and HNRS, but IMHO if you're running SM times, you're pushing hard enough to have full safety equipment.

If you want to stay n/a, the K swap really seems like the way to go.  Call K Power and spend $$$.  You can sink a ton of $$ in an n/a BP and not make what a $500 junkyard K engine makes.

I debated long and hard supercharger v. turbo.  Nick has a great setup with the Rotrex, and in a lot of ways, it's less involved than a turbo.  It can also work on a stock bottom end, because it doesn't develop the torque down low that bends rods.  And it's more linear, so easier to drive.  Don't bother with a hotside positive displacement blower, you can get far better results for your money...

I will end up turbo because it's more flexible when it comes to classing for running TT.  Different class, different map... or for rain, etc.  It also offers more headroom than the Rotrex, with the caveat that you need to build a long block.  Check out Kraken's manifold/downpipe kits... T25 or EFR...

Ive driven lots of miatas witu power adders and swaps, I liked the swapped ones the best, my order of best to 3rd best was lfx, ls, k swapped with a tie for fm turbo and rotrex supercharged following up, if fast doesnt matter more than fun and cool, Quinn's itb car is pretty cool. 

In reply to Donebrokeit :

I used a combination of the Garmin Catalyst at the end of the season and an APEX Pro. I found most use in the predictive lap-timer personally. On club days you have about 8 hours to run so I could experiment a lot and a big screen giving you the delta on your best was helpful to me to string together a good lap and understand why the little changes were making a difference. Probably not the best/most efficient setup - but I like the "self coaching" nature of both of them. The 10hz data from the APEX that I can extract and analyze can help post-session and the catalyst's nearly instant post-session analyst and the "best lap" video reference was awesome. I was able to hand the device over to the local pro driver Andy Pilgrim and we could bounce around in the videos to different laps/different micro-segments and he was able to give me advice quickly - it's one of the strongest parts of the catalyst I think. 

Carbon (Forum Supporter) said:

Ive driven lots of miatas witu power adders and swaps, I liked the swapped ones the best, my order of best to 3rd best was lfx, ls, k swapped with a tie for fm turbo and rotrex supercharged following up, if fast doesnt matter more than fun and cool, Quinn's itb car is pretty cool. 

You liked the LFX more than the LS swapped car? 

And to add a bit more relevance to the thread - it's pretty hard to beat bang for the buck on the 9LR aero-kit from everyone I've talked to

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/aerodynamics-presented-nine-lives-racing/nine-lives-racing-medium-downforce-kit-install-on-a-miata/172187/page1/

Tom1200 said:

In reply to CrashDummy :

You are off the brakes a bit early in various places but I suspect that's due to having to balance the oversteer. 

I had already suspected that carrying more corner entry speed and/or a deeper trailbrake might be an opportunity for more speed in some places at some tracks. I like a loose car, or rather I HATE a car the plows but I think there may be an opportunity to remove some rear bar. That might allow me to enter deeper without spinning. I appreciate you taking the time to look at the videos and provide some feedback.