How does 426hp...

Swank Force One wrote: And weight will have a lot to do with that. Inertia and all that. A car half the weight with half the power will feel faster.

You don't feel inertia, you feel acceleration and (especially) "jerk" (the 3rd derivative of position, or rate of change of the acceleration). A car that's half the weight with half the power and the same shape torque curve will feel the same to a butt-dyno.

The differences come because the lighter car is probably going to be smaller, have less insulation, and be lower. Lower is a big part of it -- you're closer to the botts' dots, so they're going to fly through your peripheral vision faster.

After 3 pages of beating the big dead "Cuz it's heavy" horse I'll add:

Your race-prepped, gutted miata/civic/whatever "feels" fast because it's loud as E36 M3 when you're shifting at 7k.

I routinely catch myself passing on the right in the V in third gear...looking down at the speedo, and saying "Holy E36 M3, I had no idea I was going that fast."

The car doesn't "feel" fast because it's damned near silent in the cabin, it's not rattling 20-year old bolts loose, and doesn't need to rev to the moon to make power.

As a fellow (waaay better driver than me) auto-xer once said: "Man. I hate a loud pipe. Makes me feel like I'm going way faster than I really am."

Sure, the superturd felt way faster than the V does. Apples & Orangutans.

YMMV.

codrus wrote: You don't feel inertia, you feel acceleration and (especially) "jerk" (the 3rd derivative of position, or rate of change of the acceleration). A car that's half the weight with half the power and the same shape torque curve will feel the same to a butt-dyno.

I posit that you do feel inertia in the form of how the car reacts.

Like, a 600hp 8,000lb truck feels a lot different than a 200hp 2,666lb car. I've experienced both and I think the difference is in how "settled" the thing feels. They may accelerate equally hard but the car doesn't move around so much with wind buffeting, road imperfections, and such.

Also, it only takes two 100-20 brake applications to make a F350's brakes smoke.

In reply to poopshovel:

My mom had a late 90s Grand Caravan that would do that, it was well insulated enough with deep enough overdrive that the 5000lb van would creep up to 90+mph without me noticing.

Kenny has now mentioned both a Yugo and a Dodge Caravan in a discussion about horsepower. I'm sure there's a joke to be made there, somehow.

The frantic feel must be what really many modern cars lack

I think that's a big part of it.

Well I just drove a friends 2004 E55 AMG (ya know, the one with 469hp and 516tq) and dear god it feels (and is!) fast.

Transformative experience

So I think this has something to do with why the LS2 doesn't feel fast compared to the high-strung turbos I'm used to...

315wtq at 1500 rpm (not to mention 370+ peak) would feel berkeleying bonkers in a DSM. I think the weight has more to do with it than the shape of the powerband, although both are certainly big factors.

That is how I felt in a Gen1 CTV. It was quick but it wasn't what my expectations were. A same year M3 felt much faster even though they are about the same on paper.

NVHhas much to do with it I guess.

How to make 350whp feel scary as berkeley:

In reply to poopshovel:

This is why mopeds are awesome. Slow, but awesome.

the camaro isn't a very interesting car. hideous design and overweight. I drove a stock turbo/tune sr20 powered 240sx and it was far more entertaining and thats why I bought the skyline.

My friends always wonder why I walk away unimpressed at their 4000+lb 350-400hp 60s muscle cars or their modern equivalent as well. I just think "feels like my old 350z, meh" The only one that felt fast that I tried was a mustang and that had a 3.7 iirc final drive.

My wrx is like 3100lbs and had 340wtq at peak, with the massive surge of boost and the awd grip it feels far more ridiculous.

My brother is a massive camaro fan but he also knows nothing at all about cars and drives a auto fwd accord. I try to teach him the ways of the car but he refuses. He thinks i'm tragically uncool because i don't like 80s music, leather jackets, and harley davidsons and he's a wanna be wanna be bro so that's ok, lol. The Camaro to him is a "look how cool i am, brah" bro accessory that might finally allow him to reach bro levels on the bro scale.

Sky_Render wrote:

Kenny_McCormic wrote: In reply to z31maniac: But holy E36 M3 does the top end hit hard on the Coyote motor, even in a giant lawyer truck, its advised to put the headrests up and forward when you punch it and it drops a gear or three.

Most newer cars with large motors have torque management at lower RPMs. This limits timing advance to make the cars easier to drive on the street for the average idiot American. Aftermarket tunes eliminate this "feature." Example: The Ford Racing tune on my Coyote Mustang added a peak of ~10 torques at 5,000 RPM or so... And 65 torques at 1,500 RPM by eliminating torque management. Want to see what a Mustang REALLY feels like? Take a ride in mine.

Maybe I am just out of touch with some of the newest cars on the road, but a 65ft-lb jump sounds amazing just from altering the tune on a naturally aspirated car.

And in regards to the big bloated Camaro, I found out one night my plain old LS1 4th generation Camaro can easily walk away from one of the newer cars. Surprised me quite a bit. The torque and smooth curves make the power feel less dramatic than say a WRX, but it sure does get the job done.

poopshovel wrote: After 3 pages of beating the big dead "Cuz it's heavy" horse I'll add: Your race-prepped, gutted miata/civic/whatever "feels" fast because it's loud as E36 M3 when you're shifting at 7k. I routinely catch myself passing on the right in the V in third gear...looking down at the speedo, and saying "Holy E36 M3, I had no idea I was going that fast." The car doesn't "feel" fast because it's damned near silent in the cabin, it's not rattling 20-year old bolts loose, and doesn't need to rev to the moon to make power. As a fellow (waaay better driver than me) auto-xer once said: "Man. I hate a loud pipe. Makes me feel like I'm going way faster than I really am." Sure, the superturd felt way faster than the V does. Apples & Orangutans. YMMV.

QFT.

It is amazing how much sound affects the perception of speed.

Rufledt wrote: When I tested a challenger SRT8 I felt the same way. Sure, it felt like it moved pretty quick, and handled its weight well in the twisties, but for over 400hp I was underwhelmed entirely.

I will admit, once you do some things to the 6.1L or set it in dynomode to turn everything off completely, it is a hell of a mill that makes my friend's 4300 lb charger move unlike anything that weighs that much has a right to. Granted, he is running low 12's with his now.

This is why mopeds are awesome. Slow, but awesome.

You even have one with a clutch. Clutches can make anything feel fast.. for 0.4 seconds.

Nitroracer wrote:

Sky_Render wrote:

Kenny_McCormic wrote: In reply to z31maniac: But holy E36 M3 does the top end hit hard on the Coyote motor, even in a giant lawyer truck, its advised to put the headrests up and forward when you punch it and it drops a gear or three.

Most newer cars with large motors have torque management at lower RPMs. This limits timing advance to make the cars easier to drive on the street for the average idiot American. Aftermarket tunes eliminate this "feature." Example: The Ford Racing tune on my Coyote Mustang added a peak of ~10 torques at 5,000 RPM or so... And 65 torques at 1,500 RPM by eliminating torque management. Want to see what a Mustang REALLY feels like? Take a ride in mine.

Maybe I am just out of touch with some of the newest cars on the road, but a 65ft-lb jump sounds amazing just from altering the tune on a naturally aspirated car.

Yes. The first time I drove it with the new tune, it scared the E36 M3 out of me. The immediate acceleration off the line can only be described as getting smashed in the chest with Thor's hammer. At one point I thought I was driving 60 in a 55 and was actually going 90. Fortunately, partial/transient throttle response and around-town drivability are almost stock, thanks to the fact that the Ford Racing tune is still created by the engineers who originally designed the car.

Furthermore, the increase in low-end torque actually makes the powerband even MORE linear, making it much more competitive at autocross. The powerband is less "peaky."

So my point is that these new-era Muscle cars are just handicapped from the factory. Removing that "limiter" with an aftermarket tune shows you what the cars truly are.

In reply to Sky_Render:

I'll agree to that, most modern vehicles(not just pony/muscle cars) have the same torque management systems. Several can be defeated without ecu tuning as well.