How does your ignition switch kill you?

I'm not usually the local conspiracy nut, but the fact that GM sat on this issue for so long, only to release it when Barra was CEO seems...well, like an inauspicious welcome for the first female CEO of a major global automaker.

I will add this. GM has had problems with their ignition switches for A LONG TIME. I worked in a GM dealership 10 years ago and was keying 2-3 lock cylinders per week way back then. Since at least 2001 it's been a problem on their A body and W body cars. Hell my 97 Saturn has the same problem. They've had plenty of time to find a solution and have avoided it.

GM deserves whatever penalty they have coming to them.

When the E36-M3 hits the fan, I tend to do almost nothing but quickly assess the situation. Meaning, I don't panic by ripping the steering wheel left or right or slamming on my brakes.

My SJ Grand Wagoneer quit at 70 on the highway. I instantly checked my mirrors and coasted to the shoulder.

Could it be this happens on a freeway and the normal non-enthusiast reaction is slam on brakes and get pummeled by cars/trucks from behind?

eastsidemav wrote: SVreX, Please note that the GM engineers that found this problem before the Cobalt was released were probably not drunk and off the road when the car cut out. The airbag failure is just a symptom of something else that shouldn't be happening, namely the car shutting off seemingly on its own. It appears to be a combination of three issues: 1. The turning torque for the key was way too low. Unsurprising to me, since my experience with a Saturn SL2 says GM has used crappy ignitions for far longer than this is going on. Yes, this issue is exacerbated by people hanging a bunch of crap on the key ring, but it is an issue. 2. The run position for the key sets up the issue where the weight from the keychain could assist in turning the key when the car is getting jolted. 3. Finally, (and this is the one GM engineers seemed to have known about), the placement of the key in the cars was such that it was not hard for a person's leg to bump the key, get it to rotate, and shut the car off. That alone is a safety issue, drunken morons notwithstanding.

That is the problem. GM knew that it was an issue and did nothing about it. How many times does this type of thing have to happen before manufactures just do it right the first time? I have heard that it would have cost around $1 per vehicle to fix the problem up front, now it may cost billions to deal with the problem. Yes only 12 people have been killed so far out of hundreds of thousands of potential vehicles but if one of those 12 was your loved one and/or your 16 year old newly licensed, inexperienced son or daughter driving it would be one gigantic GD issue for you. Maybe alcohol was related, maybe there is far too much weight on the key chains and maybe it could never happen to any of us because we are all such great drivers (internet sarcasm) but it's really just unacceptable that it happens at all. Believe me I hate all the lawyers and the media melee and the sue happy US where it's always someone else's fault and not theirs but GM knew about and did nothing. It's going to be crazy. Very sad.

Curmudgeon wrote: The kiddo's ION3 is involved, we got the notice the other day. I already know exactly what causes the problem. See the 'run' position in this graphic? The key has a long slot in the head instead of a central hole. That means a heavy keyring will slide to the lowest and most rearward part of the key and yes a sharp jolt can flip the ignition OFF. The real fix is to have the key vertical in the run position, that way a bouncing keyring won't easily shut the ignition off. She has a light keyring anyway, just the ignition key, the house key and the keyless remote with an aluminum butterfly. FWIW, a LOT of cars are made this way: the Trooper's key angles forward but not as much as the ION's, my newsed Xterra does the same. The Jensen does not; the key is nearly vertical in the RUN position. And also in the FWIW dept, back in the 1908's I saw Tauruses do the exact same thing for the exact same reason: huge heavy keyrings.

You do realize that EVERY vehicle I own has the same ign switch position/arragnement. None of the Korean cars I've had have had this problem.

Looks to me like "User Error" to me. . . . . like MOST idiotic recalls. Remember the tailgate cable recall for GM trucks? Someone could be illegally riding on the tailgate when it breaks and could have serious injury or death. . . .user error.

Bobzilla wrote: Remember the tailgate cable recall for GM trucks? Someone could be illegally riding on the tailgate when it breaks and could have serious injury or death. . . .user error.

Well they certainly fixed that issue. I had a 2000lb lathe and a friend standing out on my tailgate while we backed down around my friend's house to hoist it into his basement.

Those 1/2" aircraft cables are plenty strong now because some drunk ass bumpkin died to make them better. They die for the greater good really. Wait... come to think of it... we might actually be the sort of people who die. Nevermind.

I am pretty well flabbergasted by the amount of misinformation on airbags that is in this thread.

I agree with those who are expressing the sentiment that GM should not have waited so long to fix a problem.

Perhaps it was just difficult to measure the magnitude of the problem for the engineers who essentially asked the same thing I did in the title of this thread.

If a risk management matrix never elevated the problem to a certain level, there never would have been a reason to address it.

That doesn't make it right, it just makes it logical.

Vigo wrote: I am pretty well flabbergasted by the amount of misinformation on airbags that is ON THE INTERNET.

Fixed for accuracy. And I agree.

gofastbobby wrote: I will add this. GM has had problems with their ignition switches for A LONG TIME. I worked in a GM dealership 10 years ago and was keying 2-3 lock cylinders per week way back then. Since at least 2001 it's been a problem on their A body and W body cars. Hell my 97 Saturn has the same problem. They've had plenty of time to find a solution and have avoided it. GM deserves whatever penalty they have coming to them.

Same could be said of many manufacturers. Honda had ignition switch issues (randomly turn car off or not restart because of a loss of the electrical portion) in their Accord/CL/TL/RL's in the late 90's early 2000's. Hell, I was selling 5-10 a day back when. I guess that means Honda deserves what it gets too, huh?

To those who wrote above about the misinformation regarding airbags in this thread (and internet in general), if you have a minute, can you correct some of it you've heard this far?

I don't want to be that guy spreading false info...

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:

Bobzilla wrote: Those 1/2" aircraft cables are plenty strong now because some drunk ass bumpkin died to make them better. They die for the greater good really. Wait... come to think of it... we might actually be the sort of people who die. Nevermind.

I am ok being one of those people as long as the story has comedic value. I would be especially happy if it became something that you had to share with the wife and friends even though you knew it was wrong.

Bobzilla wrote:

gofastbobby wrote: I will add this. GM has had problems with their ignition switches for A LONG TIME. I worked in a GM dealership 10 years ago and was keying 2-3 lock cylinders per week way back then. Since at least 2001 it's been a problem on their A body and W body cars. Hell my 97 Saturn has the same problem. They've had plenty of time to find a solution and have avoided it. GM deserves whatever penalty they have coming to them.

Same could be said of many manufacturers. Honda had ignition switch issues (randomly turn car off or not restart because of a loss of the electrical portion) in their Accord/CL/TL/RL's in the late 90's early 2000's. Hell, I was selling 5-10 a day back when. I guess that means Honda deserves what it gets too, huh?

Yes. Did you really need clarification on that?

BTW, Honda had a really neat trick on my 98 accord. you could turn off the car and take the key out while it was still in gear. I believe they covered that on a recall as well.

In reply to Datsun1500:

Stop trying to be logical.

Think of the children!

SVreX wrote: In reply to Datsun1500: Stop trying to be logical. Think of the children!

In reply to Datsun1500:

The manufacturer made a bad product, and knew about it for a long time. It's bad business. They will now pay the price for that.

Datsun1500 wrote: If someone says don't stick a spoon in an electrical socket, and I do it anyway, I am responsible for what happens. If Someone says don't have a 2 pound ring of keys, and I do it anyway.... They're responsible? It is not the manufacturers or governments responsibility to keep me safe from myself. Stuff breaks, stuff wears out, if you pay attention, it's usually not a problem. Brake pads wear down from use, no one says a word, ignition switch wears down from use, it's a lawsuit?

Tort doctrine of "reasonably foreseeable".

And you do actually like and enjoy lots of the protection you get from manufacturers and the government on your behalf. Electrical plugs that don't connect until your finger is out of the way. Light switches with remote contacts that don't shock you when your fingers are wet. Meats that usually aren't rotten but painted to look fresh. Wrenches that break but don't shatter. Gasoline that actually is fuel. Medicines that usually are what they say they are. Things like that.

My wife's ion has had the ignition switch replaced already years ago. The car just wouldn't turn off even after the key was removed. Wonder if I need to take the car into the dealer even though it was fixed by an independent shop?

Datsun1500 wrote:

gofastbobby wrote: In reply to Datsun1500: The manufacturer made a bad product, and knew about it for a long time. It's bad business. They will now pay the price for that.

I disagree. The manufacturer made a product that breaks when too much weight is applied to it, how is it their fault?

Because the chillin'.

Datsun1500 wrote:

gofastbobby wrote: In reply to Datsun1500: The manufacturer made a bad product, and knew about it for a long time. It's bad business. They will now pay the price for that.

I disagree. The manufacturer made a product that breaks when too much weight is applied to it, how is it their fault?

"Too much weight" vs. "a reasonable weight" must be defined before this argument can be made.

Datsun1500 wrote: If someone says don't stick a spoon in an electrical socket, and I do it anyway, I am responsible for what happens. If Someone says don't have a 2 pound ring of keys, and I do it anyway.... They're responsible? It is not the manufacturers or governments responsibility to keep me safe from myself. Stuff breaks, stuff wears out, if you pay attention, it's usually not a problem. Brake pads wear down from use, no one says a word, ignition switch wears down from use, it's a lawsuit?

Lawyers.

ebonyandivory wrote: To those who wrote above about the misinformation regarding airbags in this thread (and internet in general), if you have a minute, can you correct some of it you've heard this far? I don't want to be that guy spreading false info...

http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/database/veh/veh.htm

Just browse through and watch some of the high speed video and pictures. Don't necessarily need read anything -- just observe the behavior of the test dummies and airbags and come to your own conclusions.

gofastbobby wrote: In reply to Datsun1500: The manufacturer made a bad product, and knew about it for a long time. It's bad business. They will now pay the price for that.

I disagree.

The NEWEST vehicle affected is a 2007 model year.

So, wear and tear on a 7 year old vehicle (which likely had too many keys hanging from the ignition for 7 years) is GM's fault?

How about if I jimmy it with a screwdriver for a few years? Is that GM's fault too? Why not? Shouldn't they have been able to figure out that there are stupid people out there who think screwdrivers are keys?

Your statement sounds like vindictiveness against the terrible big capitalists.

We all know VW's have struggled with electrical problems for decades. What if an electrical problem leads to engine shutoff? Should VW have been able to foresee that, and any related potential future deaths? For how long? How about if the car is 25 years old?

Bleeding heart consumers miss the fact that you can't engineer around stupidity, and any attempt to is a cost shared by ALL buyers of the product. It doesn't hurt the company.

It primarily benefits lawyers.

So, you are proposing increasing sales prices to consumers as a gift to future lawyers.

The ignition switch fails under normal operation. It fails more often when the driver has a heavy set of keys. Either way they made a bad product.

Auto manufacturers do life testing on almost every moveable part in the vehicle. I have seen it in action. The General knew this problem existed before a single car was sold.

The responsible thing to do is fix the problem when you discover it. GM has had plenty of time to remedy the situation.

If you feel I have "vindictivness towards the terrible big capitalists", you'd be wrong. It was however irresponsible for General Motors to not fix this chronic problem.

A car that is 7 years old is at the end of its expected life anyway. If anything lasts longer than that, then it was overengineered and probably cost too much.

You have to define your design goals and at least one of those goals involves expected lifespan. Cars COULD be engineered to last 100 years but nobody would buy them because of the expense or engineering compromises made to get to that level.