How much horsepower is enough?

The answer to that question depends on the chassis, tires and brakes.

In reply to Knurled:

I think it becomes a dollar and goal proposition sometimes too. In my case I want to build a station wagon that'll make someone that bought a brand new Mustang GT immediately regret all their decisions in life. I don't need supercar power to do that.

A lower number will still accomplish the goal but I can still use an 8.8 rear end and I won't have to install tubs (sort of a problem on a RX3 wagon since I want to retain the rear seats.) I'm also able to back off the turbo a little bit making the project more palatable for SWMBO.

PAC Performances and others have built crazy high horsepower RX-3 wagons for the strip. Interestingly I don't feel the need to recreate that.

Now that said. If I ever get more garage space (and time) again I'm going to find the rattiest abortion of project FD RX7 I can find, build 500+ HP motor, fit it with a TCP Magic G-Face kit and the biggest brakes I can find. Then bring it to the UTCC.

Just a matter of finding the right size hammer for each job.

I'm bored with horsepower in the same way that I'm bored of money because I see HP as the means to an end, not the end unto itself. I had more fun thrashing my parents Volvo station wagon on backroads than I ever had driving a 400 HP Malibu SS. I had awesome fun beating C-5 Corvettes at Sears Point in my 175 HP 1st Gen Stalker.

How much HP is enough? As much as it takes to have fun.

David S. Wallens wrote: How much power is enough? Have you ever driven a car and thought, Yeah, this is enough?

670 HP was not

Fifty horsepower.

You didn't say how light the vehicle had to be, right?

Fifty horsepower in the right airplane will haul a pilot over the Rockies. Fifty horsepower on the right kart will leave black lines on every corner exit like a Can-Am car. Fifty horsepower driving the jet of a personal watercraft will send a light rider jumping, flying, skidding, rolling. Fifty horsepower in the right motorcycle will pop the front wheel up and outrun almost any car on the road. Fifty horsepower in a car has taken families coast-to-coast to a new life.

Enough is the amount that puts a smile on my face.

There is no such thing as "too much power." There is only "not enough tire."

Often in racing enough horsepower is what you need to just barely win.

If you just barely win then there is a chance that a few people will believe you aren't cheating.

I drove a ZL-1 with the 580hp LSA and I was pretty satisfied at that level, but I wouldn't have minded more.

I remember one year at the SCCA Solo Nationals when the SS winner told me that he didn't ever get the gas pedal all the way down, anywhere on the course.

David S. Wallens wrote: Have you ever driven a car and thought, Yeah, this is enough?

For me, the simple answer is no. I love horsepower, so I'll take all I can get. The fastest cars I've owned were my roughly 375hp 2300lb FFR Cobra, my '99 Viper GTS, and a 450hp C5. All were really fast, but I would have happily taken more.

The only time I've ever said "Yeah, that's enough" was when I was riding in a car. I was at a Cobra show in Ohio years back, one of the biggest replica Cobra shows in the country. Something like 300 cars. On one of the cruises, a guy broke down toward the end. It was real close to the hotel my wife and I had, so we got our truck/trailer and went back to give him a tow back. He fixed the car at the hotel, and the next day offered me a ride. It had a bored/stroked/worked 460, I think total cubes were like 520. Plus it had a mega sized blower on top. He said that the local dyno couldn't hold it, so to their estimation it was something like 1000-1100hp. From a dead stop, he put it in second, just let the clutch out, so the car started rolling, then nailed it. It was nothing but tire smoke the entire way. That was just too much. Saw him the next year with a different car, and he said he sold it because it just wasn't fun to drive on the street...too hard to control and too hard to keep it cool.

In reply to Brett_Murphy:

this x1000

That being said, I'm yet to drive anything with north of 600hp and think that it could use more grunt. More refined delivery, yes, though that's in the hands of the person behind the wheel, but more raw power, no.

Knurled wrote:

clutchsmoke wrote: TL;DR 400HP in a 3000lb car is almost enough, 110HP in a 450lb motorcycle is almost enough.

Guy I work with has a bike that weighs (officially) 375lb and has (allegedly) 160-180hp.

That's basically any of the current-ish 1000cc sportbikes, right?

ProDarwin wrote:

Knurled wrote:

clutchsmoke wrote: TL;DR 400HP in a 3000lb car is almost enough, 110HP in a 450lb motorcycle is almost enough.

Guy I work with has a bike that weighs (officially) 375lb and has (allegedly) 160-180hp.

That's basically *any* of the current-ish 1000cc sportbikes, right?

Almost...sounds like this one has some mods.

I'd say 300~400hp is enough for non-competition use, and this is how much I think EVs will have in the future when power is cheap and comes with no meaningful efficiency downsides...just before driverless cars become the norm and people won't care how much power their car has unless they notice it struggling to climb a hill or something.

It seems like the consensus is that it requires a case-by-case accounting but the answer seems to be "As much as the platform can handle".

A little too much:

Juuuust right:

But the proper answer is "When I say it is" and I have never said that.

Let's see... I somehow manage to get speeding tickets in a 2003 VW diesel station wagon that puts out 90 HP. So apparently 90 HP is enough.

In reality, I think it depends on the car and its intended use.

Enough is the point where you can rarely use all of the power and feel inclined to change other things on the car instead of just adding more power.

For a street car I think ~9-10:1 weight to power ratio is about right. When you get into >400hp cars, it starts to become difficult to use it on the street. Want to floor it for 2 seconds for some fun? Now you're 30mph over the speed limit. I think in the ~9-10:1 ratio, the skill required to keep control of the car is within a low enough threshold that most people can be safe. On the track the same concept applies, the ratio might be a bit faster.

Start a thread about a BRZ/ FR-S and you'll find out in less than 5 posts.

I am apparently pretty easy to satisfy. While "a little more would be nice" as always, I have had a few daily drivers with less than 150hp and they have all been "enough". The most powerful cars I've ever owned were both alleged to be 210hp from the factory. They were very different though, one a NA V8, the other a turbo 4. I definitely wanted a lot more from the V8. The car was certainly fast enough to get me in trouble, but it was not enough for that car...

David, David, David, you know full well that it's a completely subjective topic and there is no answer to such a squishy question. I'll play along however to up your page hits - I currently have a 1700-lb mid-engine car with 430-530whp, depending how it's measured. Scares me every time I drive it, so while I used to want more I no longer do. Does that answer the question? Of course not.

I felt like my '13 GT Mustang was plenty. It had the track pack so different rear gears, but it would still chirp the shift into 4th at 100mph.

Although if I had changed the suspension and put wider/stickier tires on it, it would have been a little easier to handle.

when I had my 318ti, I wanted 200hp. The car was fun with 140ish.. but 200 would have woken it up.

That said, the most fun car I ever owned was a 1988 Hyundai Excel with a 1.5 making all of 62hp. That little lawnmower of a car took me through blizzards, off roading, rallying (jersey jump) and all over the east coast. One I modified the handling, it could keep up with most anything in a corner.. but anything more powerful than a bicycle would leave it for dead in a straight line.

Having said that, I don't like going straight. I am a momentum kinda guy. You do not need to accelerate if you never slow down

David S. Wallens wrote: Have you ever driven a car and thought, Yeah, this is enough?

Hmmm. That's an interesting question. On the street I'm pretty content with anything in the 300HP + range. On the track it's a different story. My Camaro puts out about 640 HP at the crank and has over 600 lb/ft of torque from 3,400 RPM to 5,500 RPM and I've never wished for more power, I often wish for more tire and better aero but not more power.

On the other hand I've had the pleasure of driving a couple of Porsche GT3s on several tracks and while they're absolutely amazing cars and every time I drive one I think about selling my house to buy one I think they could use just a bit more power.

Formula Fords feel like they could use more power to me as do spec. Miatas. Although I'd do softer front springs or a stiffer rear bar in the Miata first.

I guess that I'm always looking at ways to improve performance and so cars that have great driving dynamics always seem to need more power and ones that don't seem to need to be improve in other areas.

The answer really isn't how much but how much is felt. Sure, 205hp is great in a 3000lb car for getting around town. But when you mat the loud pedal and you have to wait for it to do what you want, it needs more. I want my power band wide, in the low and middle ranges because that's where I drive. I want to roll on the pedal and feel that push into the seat. If I have time to think "c'mon baby, make some power!" it's not enough.