There are exemptions to the booze tax if it's non-consumption but there are limits on things and afaik it's always denatured with *something* to avoid it be it gasoline, methanol, etc. Even if it has water in it, it still needs the denaturing otherwise it's consumable.
Did some quick reading and you can get above 95.6%. That's the normal distilling process. At that point you have to do a lot of chemistry to remove any remaining water. Most sounds like not for human consumption stuff.
On that subject I just guessed. Seemed logical. I know when I was racing there was a nearby refinery that was willing to sell us ethanol if we denatured it ourselves. We had to bring sealed 5 gallon gas cans. They'd take video of us taking off the seal providing a sample vial and pouring it in the drum. Then they'd fill it with 50 gallons of ethanol.
They never said it was denatured already.
That's where my 5 gallons of VP 12 came from.
An unused can. Still have it.
engiekev said:Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) said:
Edit - it's likely the @ AFR being the difference, that chart above is in equivalence ratio (1/lambda) so for most high power ethanol cars it would be all the way to the right (~1.33) and for methanol it would be off the chart to the right (~1.6). Just looking at the trends on that end of the chart, the order of results would change a bit.
Yep, I think that's the difference! We're talking about the same thing, it's just relative to AFR (Iambda or eq ratio is better since that takes stoich differences into account of course!). Lab and simulation conditions rarely match the real world, so I agree do what the motor likes and what feels right with your judgement. Ideally doing that port injection study on an engine dyno, with combustion pressure sensors, then you can really characterize the differences. It's probably already been done, just a matter of finding the published SAE paper or journal. It's all interesting stuff, we need to have a GRM combustion seminar!
I think the other discrepancy with race ethanol fuels is they are more controlled, the latest indycars run E98 which is basically E100. The charge cooling benefits of aux injectors upstream are probably much more worth the complexity than if you were to use pump E85 (summer "1" class E85 is a minimum of 79% ethanol, class 2 blend is 74% ethanol, winter class 3 blend is only 70% ethanol).
And they're looking for every 1/10% HP within the ruleset, Frenchy probably will be just fine with a V8 Twin Turbo on pump gas, let alone E85 with aux injectors! Keep it simple, you can always go to E85 later! I'm always shocked by the lengths people go through to run "E30" or other tunes, without a flex fuel sensor it's risky business.
I plan on using a sensor to detect percentage of ethanol. Either pull one from a flex fuel wreck or buy one. Being the cheapskate I am I prefer junkyard hunting.
Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) said:Just run your 7:1 pistons on E85 and crank it. Will feel a little lazy compared to a high compression setup, but it will fly once air starts moving.
Well... That's the thing. If you are familiar with 2 valve VW engines, you know how cruddy the ports are, and if you are familiar with small chassis Audis, you know how much room there isn't on the manifolds side of the engine bay. There isn't much room in there for cranking it.
I did get the best 10v exhaust manifold available (2 piece unit) without going to a crack prone header. Had a bit of a bummer when I found a 944S K27 turbo on eBay for cheap and realized that it flows less than the S60R turbo (K24-7400) that I was already going to use...
frenchy, skip the sensor on a race car. Measure the ethanol % in a baby bottle with some water and change the tune accordingly. Saves you a few challenge $
Yes I am unfortunately very familiar with 2v VW/Audi engines but have tuned some that make decent hp. Not much experience in the Audi chassis though from a manifold and turbo selection. Most of the time for bigger power we are using t3/4 or full t4 turbos even on the little motors. One thing that helps is more valves but that is a decision you need to make up front! I think the most I have gotten out of an 8v was 443whp but have another customer that's trying to crack 700. We'll see if we break the motor or his wallet first.
In reply to Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) :
While I love the baby bottle method. I've heard the sensor is easy to get especially if the transmission is pulled and very cheap. ( $15 ) at this point I'm going to be at $1700 for the challenge. So I'm shopping around for what I can get that will gain enough speed to more than offset its cost.
I originally was planning on using Trailblazer/Envoy injectors but Now I'm not sure they they are big enough for both the turbo and the E85.
My Computer program doesn't give me injector sizes. But it did say I'd be around 560 hp the way I'm planning. I prefer junkyard parts but if I have to I'm willing to spend that $300 on injectors rather than be too small. I should check Chump Car rules to see if they hit me for bigger injectors.
There is a way to modify the LS injectors to get more flow, it isn't pretty but gets you in a good spot for E85. Not sure how well they would work for transients in autoX but work OK for drag.
For 560hp you need roughly 30lb/hr injectors which are quite common as take offs from the turbo volvos, they are small diameter and RED
In reply to Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) :
Thank you. Hi ho hi ho it's off to the junkyards I go. Hopefully I only have to find 2 six cylinders? Or will I be looking for three 4 cylinders?
I might be better off getting 2 Sets from an LS. And snip them. Hmmmm on a 5.3 I'm feeding 420 cc each. If they have flex fuel already••••• but umm. The Jaguar is 441 cc per cylinder. Still they'd be much more common. Hmmm.
The volvos are turbo 5cyl iirc, older SVO mustangs have the fatter 30lb as well but likely a bit more rare at this point
Supercharged GM 3800s are showing up en masse in junkyards, at least up here in the midwest. They have white plastic Bosch EV1 injectors that flow around 36lb/hr at 3 bar. They're a drop-in replacement for LS1 EV1 injectors, popular cheap upgrade for cathedral-port LS builds.
Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) said:The volvos are turbo 5cyl iirc, older SVO mustangs have the fatter 30lb as well but likely a bit more rare at this point
I have a set of five red injectors from a 1.9l S40. (So really, from two 1.9l S40s) They were advertised as 440cc, never checked.
Not sure about ALL turbo 5cyl but the 2.4l turbo engines I bought ('05-09 S60 T5) are light blue, the ones from the S60R engine are green. The greens are supposedly 465cc/min.
Not sure what the 2.5T (base model, 2.5l turbo) S60s had.
I'm wondering if the 30lb (310cc?) injectors you are talking about were from an old turbo redblock (200/700/900 series) Or if I got sold a line on the injectors I bought 
obsolete said:Supercharged GM 3800s are showing up en masse in junkyards, at least up here in the midwest. They have white plastic Bosch EV1 injectors that flow around 36lb/hr at 3 bar. They're a drop-in replacement for LS1 EV1 injectors, popular cheap upgrade for cathedral-port LS builds.
Where at? Haven't seen one of those in about ten years. Heavy body rot problems on anything they were installed in.
obsolete said:Supercharged GM 3800s are showing up en masse in junkyards, at least up here in the midwest. They have white plastic Bosch EV1 injectors that flow around 36lb/hr at 3 bar. They're a drop-in replacement for LS1 EV1 injectors, popular cheap upgrade for cathedral-port LS builds.
Thank you I'll look for those as well. I hate to ask a really dumb question but how do you remove them? Is it something I can. Just look at and see or is there a special removal tool required?
In reply to frenchyd :
Just unbolt the rail. They are only held in by the rail. GM also likes to put a retainer clip on the top that you just pop off with a screwdriver or a socket extension or a stiff twig.
Just dug through my stash and found one of those Volvo injectors, they are a brown-ish red PN 0280155831
Pete. (l33t FS) said:In reply to frenchyd :
Just unbolt the rail. They are only held in by the rail. GM also likes to put a retainer clip on the top that you just pop off with a screwdriver or a socket extension or a stiff twig.
Stiff twig, I loved that! I'll go with my back up set of Snap On screwdrivers. But I had a smile on my face all day about that.
In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
Twin cities area U-Pull yards usually seem to have at least one. Grand Prix GTP, Park Avenue Ultra, Bonneville SSEi, etc. Last time I went, there were 3 or 4 of them in the yard.
Stampie (FS) said:Did some quick reading and you can get above 95.6%. That's the normal distilling process. At that point you have to do a lot of chemistry to remove any remaining water. Most sounds like not for human consumption stuff.
All the race gas brand E100 is branded as E98. I would not recommend drinking it 
https://petroleumservicecompany.com/sunoco-e98-race-fuel-54-gallon-drum/
https://cromwellautomotive.com/product/vp-racing-fuels-x98-ethanol-e98-unleaded-5-gallon-pail/
These guys "cut" the E100 with 1/100% LPG
https://e98racing.net/
frenchyd said:engiekev said:Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) said:
Edit - it's likely the @ AFR being the difference, that chart above is in equivalence ratio (1/lambda) so for most high power ethanol cars it would be all the way to the right (~1.33) and for methanol it would be off the chart to the right (~1.6). Just looking at the trends on that end of the chart, the order of results would change a bit.
Yep, I think that's the difference! We're talking about the same thing, it's just relative to AFR (Iambda or eq ratio is better since that takes stoich differences into account of course!). Lab and simulation conditions rarely match the real world, so I agree do what the motor likes and what feels right with your judgement. Ideally doing that port injection study on an engine dyno, with combustion pressure sensors, then you can really characterize the differences. It's probably already been done, just a matter of finding the published SAE paper or journal. It's all interesting stuff, we need to have a GRM combustion seminar!
I think the other discrepancy with race ethanol fuels is they are more controlled, the latest indycars run E98 which is basically E100. The charge cooling benefits of aux injectors upstream are probably much more worth the complexity than if you were to use pump E85 (summer "1" class E85 is a minimum of 79% ethanol, class 2 blend is 74% ethanol, winter class 3 blend is only 70% ethanol).
And they're looking for every 1/10% HP within the ruleset, Frenchy probably will be just fine with a V8 Twin Turbo on pump gas, let alone E85 with aux injectors! Keep it simple, you can always go to E85 later! I'm always shocked by the lengths people go through to run "E30" or other tunes, without a flex fuel sensor it's risky business.
I plan on using a sensor to detect percentage of ethanol. Either pull one from a flex fuel wreck or buy one. Being the cheapskate I am I prefer junkyard hunting.
That is the best solution, the sensor is the easy part, the hard part is integrating the sensor into your engine management. You need a engine management software that allows for flex fuel compensation, where you'll essentially have two timing/fuel maps (each base map calibrated for that fuel type, E0/E85 E10/E98 etc.) and the engine management software interpolates between the two based on the sensor ethanol content detected. That means more dyno or road tuning time, and most likely adding an aftermarket engine management package (not cheap or challenge friendly).
I agree with Paul, unless you're planning on switching fuels quite regularly, then the measurement method works fine. Make a base tune for pump gas, and one for E85. Measure E85 percent at pump, if its close enough to 85% then flash your E85 tune. When you go back to pump gas, flash the pump tune.
Flex Fuel sensor integration is more valuable for a daily driven car that sees the variation in ethanol content at the pump by season (E70 in winter, E85 in summer).
In reply to engiekev :
I don't see much, if any street driving in its future. Plenty of others for that task. This will be a track car.
So I don't anticipate the use of anything other than E85.
The baby bottle method will work but what to do if too low alcohol content? Can I supplement with Methanol to bring the alcohol content up? You can't buy 100% ethanol.
methanol is cheap if purchased in 55 gallon drums.
or should I use the windshield washer fluid mixture to supplement at peak boost pressures?
I know some poo-poo windshield washer fluid, because what if it fails, or I forget to fill it etc. but I can use a simple pump and keep it in my sight line.
a button on the steering wheel, and Bob's your uncle.
I know you are cheap but best off using canned E85 and never having to worry about it, Ignite would be my recommendation. All pump E85 has limits on what it can be, and it depends on winter vs summer. We measure all of ours at the pump (for street cars) and then decide to buy or not based on ethanol content. If it's not 75% or higher we move to a different station. We don't have as many around anymore so this is tougher and more cars are running pump E85 for just around and switching to dedicated fuel for the track.
There aren't huge tuning changes between E70-E90 more of optimization of the timing (few deg) and make sure you still hit target AFR. Many times even WOT closed loop fuel control can compensate depending on the ECU.
I wouldn't mix methanol, and if you are going to use it, just use all of it instead of ethanol. Be prepared for a $$$ fuel system.
frenchyd said:In reply to engiekev :
I don't see much, if any street driving in its future. Plenty of others for that task. This will be a track car.
So I don't anticipate the use of anything other than E85.
The baby bottle method will work but what to do if too low alcohol content? Can I supplement with Methanol to bring the alcohol content up? You can't buy 100% ethanol.
methanol is cheap if purchased in 55 gallon drums.
or should I use the windshield washer fluid mixture to supplement at peak boost pressures?I know some poo-poo windshield washer fluid, because what if it fails, or I forget to fill it etc. but I can use a simple pump and keep it in my sight line.
a button on the steering wheel, and Bob's your uncle.
This tool makes it easier:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/rvx-st0501
Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) said:I know you are cheap but best off using canned E85 and never having to worry about it, Ignite would be my recommendation. All pump E85 has limits on what it can be, and it depends on winter vs summer. We measure all of ours at the pump (for street cars) and then decide to buy or not based on ethanol content. If it's not 75% or higher we move to a different station. We don't have as many around anymore so this is tougher and more cars are running pump E85 for just around and switching to dedicated fuel for the track.
There aren't huge tuning changes between E70-E90 more of optimization of the timing (few deg) and make sure you still hit target AFR. Many times even WOT closed loop fuel control can compensate depending on the ECU.
I wouldn't mix methanol, and if you are going to use it, just use all of it instead of ethanol. Be prepared for a $$$ fuel system.
I've seen what methanol does to racers. Of course in my day nearly every weekend some racer was reported dead. A lot of sprint car drivers drove with one arm. Or missing a leg etc. so dying in the future from organ failure or cancer wasn't a big deal to them.
So you were successful in talking me out of it.
Minnesota is in the heart of the corn belt I know of 7 refineries making ethanol and there are so many gas stations locally that carry it I can shop for price ( Right now $1.59/9 is cheapest ) and using your baby bottle Alcohol content.
I'll give up a degree or two in timing without a care. Since I race in the summer the fuel will be whatever. I'll just buy a junkyard sensor and figure out how to get it to talk to the Megasquirt. ( if it can be done).
I'm already planning on replacing the Jaguar throttle bodies with Chevy or Ford. Something the Megasquirt speaks a common language with. Finding a 6.0 liter V12 to rob a crank sensor off of might be a chore. They only made something like 7,000 with about 1/2 coming here to the states. The few I've seen in Junkyards the owner knows what a premium they are so is asking accordingly.
Is a crank sensor a crank sensor? Or do I need something from a V12?
frenchyd said:I'll give up a degree or two in timing without a care. Since I race in the summer the fuel will be whatever. I'll just buy a junkyard sensor and figure out how to get it to talk to the Megasquirt. ( if it can be done).
I'm already planning on replacing the Jaguar throttle bodies with Chevy or Ford. Something the Megasquirt speaks a common language with. Finding a 6.0 liter V12 to rob a crank sensor off of might be a chore. They only made something like 7,000 with about 1/2 coming here to the states. The few I've seen in Junkyards the owner knows what a premium they are so is asking accordingly.
Is a crank sensor a crank sensor? Or do I need something from a V12?
Figuring out how to make the Flex sensor work with microsquirt involves getting 5 volts to the sensor then mounting wiring the other output wire back to the ecu. Then turning the function on.
As for throttle body. GM trucks are cheap and plentiful and easy to calibrate as they are GM and thats the basic setting in MS.
Pretty much every crank sensor can be supported by MS, what do they use factory? A hall effect sensor in the distributor?
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