How to win the UTCC (or do really well) on a budget

I often find myself daydreaming about a 914 chassis developed to the nines with either:

1) large displacement sport bike motor

2) forced induction larger displacement but lower revving motorcycle motor (thinking something like a honda flat 6 from a GW)

3) 3 rotor rotary

4) forced induction direct injection 4cyl something.

if i weren't picking up a running 200sx v6 hatch for $200 this weekend, i'd be skrimping every penny to get that blue 914 roller from the classifieds section and have a go at #2 for challenge money. sans FI the first year, then FI for the year after.

Interesting discussion. Some thoughts are more along the lines of what I'm thinking (LSx RX-7 or even a 'Vette prepped for road racing) while others (a Radical) seem really expensive.

So far, the V8 FC seems to be the cheapest option. I know how much those cost (nice running ones can be had for less than $10k) and, with the right suspension and braking set up, it sounds like it can handle. Add a turbo perhaps for additional HP, and it could be wicked fast.

tuna55 wrote:

scardeal wrote: Isn't the answer always Miata? Miata + V8 + aero trickery == fast?

I like this idea - get a swoopy hardtop on an NB and make it 1800 lb light and stuff a NA LSx 454 in it making somewhere around 650-750 hp (which should be pretty easy) and modify the body (no flares) to run some super wide slicks...

Could it be made aero enough? And while the chassis is certainly sublime, is it ready for loads of HP and serious high speed work? Serious questions...not rhetorical.

Maybe a Miata with this treatment?

The reason I vote C5 is that most of the work is done for you, and is proven.

• It already has a spectacular suspension.
• It already has great weight distribution.
• It already has an LSx.
• It already holds massive tires.
• It already has proven subsystems.

Yes, you can get a Miata or an FC or a 914 there, but it's going to take a E36 M3ton of work and money. The C5 can be picked up for a tick over $10k and is 90% of the way there. Fab up a turbo system that doubles the power, throw a cage in it and some bigass tires, freshen the worn out stuff and throw a few bucks at some pimpy shocks, and you've got a legitimate supercar killer for under $20k.

The first car in this link... plus more boosts?

http://www.flyinmiata.com/us/for_sale.php

bluej wrote: I often find myself daydreaming about a 914 chassis developed to the nines with either: 4) forced induction direct injection 4cyl something.

You mean like this?

JDM 2.0 Subaru WRX STi-swap 914 from this thread.

In reply to DILYSI Dave:

I agree with you 100%, but I think if I work hard enough at it I could do an FC for less than $10k. Of course that is only because of the really cheap buy in, the labor would be drastically higher.

S2000 with full aero treatment, and a 2jz swap.

I'm told you can fit a ridiculous amount of tire under those things.

In reply to Javelin:

i purposely avoided that thread.

i was justified.

bluej wrote: In reply to Javelin: i purposely avoided that thread. i was justified.

You haven't even seen the FTD LS1 FC yet or the totally-badass 73 Carrera RS!

My poor computer is working overtime editing and posting full HD videos. (Don't forget to change the resolution on YouTube and go full screen)

DILYSI Dave wrote: The reason I vote C5 is that most of the work is done for you, and is proven. - It already has a spectacular suspension. - It already has great weight distribution. - It already has an LSx. - It already holds massive tires. - It already has proven subsystems. Yes, you can get a Miata or an FC or a 914 there, but it's going to take a E36 M3ton of work and money. The C5 can be picked up for a tick over $10k and is 90% of the way there. Fab up a turbo system that doubles the power, throw a cage in it and some bigass tires, freshen the worn out stuff and throw a few bucks at some pimpy shocks, and you've got a legitimate supercar killer for under $20k.

You have a good point, it also has better aero than anything mentioned thus far I believe. I was just thinking Miata because it could be made lighter (I would guess) than the Vette.

dyintorace wrote:

tuna55 wrote:

scardeal wrote: Isn't the answer always Miata? Miata + V8 + aero trickery == fast?

I like this idea - get a swoopy hardtop on an NB and make it 1800 lb light and stuff a NA LSx 454 in it making somewhere around 650-750 hp (which should be pretty easy) and modify the body (no flares) to run some super wide slicks...

Could it be made aero enough? And while the chassis is certainly sublime, is it ready for loads of HP and serious high speed work? Serious questions...not rhetorical.

I dunno - let's build one and find out!

I think a FD RX7 would be better than an FC, but thats from limited knowledge. From what I understand, you can fit bigger tires on a FD, which is essential IMO. Stuff an 800hp modern era sbc in it and win (or 1000hp twin turbo, which is s00per easy relative to anything else).

I know that the UTCC has gone all "We don't need no stinking classes", but should that decision ever be reversed, I like the idea of a $20k challenge class.

tuna55 wrote:

DILYSI Dave wrote: The reason I vote C5 is that most of the work is done for you, and is proven. - It already has a spectacular suspension. - It already has great weight distribution. - It already has an LSx. - It already holds massive tires. - It already has proven subsystems. Yes, you can get a Miata or an FC or a 914 there, but it's going to take a E36 M3ton of work and money. The C5 can be picked up for a tick over $10k and is 90% of the way there. Fab up a turbo system that doubles the power, throw a cage in it and some bigass tires, freshen the worn out stuff and throw a few bucks at some pimpy shocks, and you've got a legitimate supercar killer for under $20k.

You have a good point, it also has better aero than anything mentioned thus far I believe. I was just thinking Miata because it could be made lighter (I would guess) than the Vette.

The only way I can see to beat this would be to find something lighter. The best solution I see is a Lotus Europa. If you've got a welder you can expand the rear frame as needed to fit an LSx and the requisite turbos. Then you're looking at about the same power as the C5 solution, but almost half the weight. Tires will be smaller, but the weight solves that too. Plus, a used up Europa will be cheaper than a C5, so you can spend the remainder of your $20k on getting some proper aero for the car.

Guys show up to this thing with Daytona Prototypes... I just can't see anything built based on a regular car topping it. IMO It has to be a purpose built racecar with suspension design capable of taking advantage of radial slicks.

yeha22 wrote:

tuna55 wrote:

DILYSI Dave wrote: The reason I vote C5 is that most of the work is done for you, and is proven. - It already has a spectacular suspension. - It already has great weight distribution. - It already has an LSx. - It already holds massive tires. - It already has proven subsystems. Yes, you can get a Miata or an FC or a 914 there, but it's going to take a E36 M3ton of work and money. The C5 can be picked up for a tick over $10k and is 90% of the way there. Fab up a turbo system that doubles the power, throw a cage in it and some bigass tires, freshen the worn out stuff and throw a few bucks at some pimpy shocks, and you've got a legitimate supercar killer for under $20k.

You have a good point, it also has better aero than anything mentioned thus far I believe. I was just thinking Miata because it could be made lighter (I would guess) than the Vette.

The only way I can see to beat this would be to find something lighter. The best solution I see is a Lotus Europa. If you've got a welder you can expand the rear frame as needed to fit an LSx and the requisite turbos. Then you're looking at about the same power as the C5 solution, but almost half the weight. Tires will be smaller, but the weight solves that too. Plus, a used up Europa will be cheaper than a C5, so you can spend the remainder of your $20k on getting some proper aero for the car.

LOTUS EUROPA? LS? Are you mad? The engine would tear the car in half!

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: S2000 with full aero treatment, and a 2jz swap. I'm told you can fit a ridiculous amount of tire under those things.

You can make a E36 M3 ton of power by boosting the stock motor, which weighs 1/2 of what a 2jz does.

DILYSI Dave has the correct answer.

MrJoshua wrote: In reply to DILYSI Dave: I agree with you 100%, but I think if I work hard enough at it I could do an FC for less than $10k. Of course that is only because of the really cheap buy in, the labor would be drastically higher.

It would be interesting to attempt this. I also like DILYSI Dave's idea of some sort of budget class within the UTCC (at the risk of creating too many categories). Given the low buy in of an FC, the (relatively) low cost of an LSx/T56 combo, etc, a giant slaying car is conceivable. Hmm.

FC-$1000
Wheels and tires-$1000
LS1/t56-$3000
Suspension-$1000
Cage-$1000
Seat/harnesses-$500
Aero-$500
Turbo setup-$1000
Fuel system-$500
Computer-$500 Total-$10,000

Edit: I forgot to add in the ebay front fenders and rear flares and paint.

I have built and shopped LS1 FC parts for many years now and I can easily make those numbers and think some could be cut drastically.

Im surprised the turbo setup is so cheap.

You may underestimate the performance of the C5 with just a good set of tires. I think you would have a hard time setting up an FC to beat it with those numbers.

In reply to ProDarwin:

Understand that none of what I am listing is off the shelf stuff. I have two freshly rebuilt mack truck turbos sitting in my garage that can push well north of 600hp worth of air each that I paid $125 for the pair. In my mind I estimated high for the turbo setup. A C5 is a beast. I have no doubt of its performance capability. I do think I could at least come close with a well built FC. I think my advantages would be lighter weight, easier turbo setup fabrication (room), and of course lower cost.

Aren't there enough FCs floating around in our back yards to use? Can't we just count that $1000 out already?

I keep coming back to the same thing over and over. Find something that came from the factory in an F/R layout that has a lot of space in the engine bay for moar powah. FC RX7 seems to be that. It helps that the experience with that chassis seems to already be there. Sometimes, you do better building a car you try hard with and learn a lot and return with something that will do better next time than shooting for the moon and landing on your face.

Shiftercart+ GSX-R 750 engine+ aero?