HPDE Safety Stuff: School me.

First track weekend at NJMP: DONE!

Had an amazing time but the speeds were much higher than I expected (was moved out of group 1 after 2 sessions). After my 2nd day I'm somewhere in mid-pack of group 2, which is a lot faster than I expected. Chasing Corvettes is fun!

I had intended to install sway bars and maybe an X-brace before my next outing, but our instructors are pushing the seat/harness/hans combo pretty hard. Which is understandable... but at the same time, I was really hoping not to make my daily driver unlivable.

Edit: Car currently has proper 4-pt rollbar with integrated harness bar. Otherwise nothing extra.

The way I see it, I have a few options:

1) Stick to stock seat & 3 point with airbag with my bike helmet.

2) Buy hybrid-HANS and helmet, stick to stock seat and 3 point.

3) Go all-in. 2 race seats, 2 harnesses, HANS and helmet. OOOF. $$$$$$ And now I've either gotta swap seats before every track weekend or endure pain on the road every day.

Then again, who puts a $ value on their safety? Should I just buy a caged racecar?

I got out of hpde due to safety concerns. However, a harness bar and 5 points designed for your car, with an appropriate seat will be sufficient for now. The seats should be easy enough to swap out for the event, and the harnesses just hang doen behind. Most cars have a way of using the stock floor hardware and a harness bar for this purpose.

Its my understanding that a hans needs a special seat designed for it.

What car? The Miata in your avatar?

Safety equipment is going to be all or nothing -- half-cage or 4 point roll bar at a minimum so you have something to mount the shoulder straps to and something to prevent the roof from crushing you when you're strapped bolt-upright to your seat; legal (non-expired) fixed back seat mounted low enough to clear the roll bar by a couple inches with a helmet on; legal (non-expired) harnesses securely mounted. This system is designed to work with a helmet on at all times, so it's somewhat compromised for street safety because of the roll bar. Currently I'm doing option 3, swapping out my stock seats for race seats for track events, and just dealing with the knowledge that I could brain myself to death on the roll bar when I'm not on the track.

Personally I think #2 is a good compromise for a fixed-roof car. For a soft-top, I dunno... I have mixed feelings when I see Miatas with roll bars and stock seats. Unless you're really short, I worry about the lack of head clearance around the roll bar.

Your favourite car mag had a Facebook live re Hans devices very recently, including one that is designed to work with a three point belt. Might want to dig that up.

If you've just started HPDE, don't buy a caged race car yet.

I'm not sure that running with a bike helmet is a good idea in the longer term, I'd look into a SA spec helmet unless it's already DOT and SA anyway.

If the stock seat holds you well enough I would just look into a hybrid HANS and work on the driver. You'll soon be spending enough money on suspension etc. If it doesn't, I'd look at a reclineable seat that would work with both a five point harness and the stock belt. Good ones usually aren't cheap but IMHO a better compromise than a full on bucket seat, although I have been known to run the latter in HPDE/PDX as well.

Speaking of swapping seats, I put together a combination of rails/seatbelt lock and seat airbag sensor pigtails that allow me to swap the stock seat in my RX8 for a Recaro race seat in well under 30 minutes.

Regarding harness bars, make sure you can get a good quality one for your car first before considering a five point harness. Most of the cheapo ones are cheap for a reason.

In reply to steronz:

For HDPE, normally people don't care if the seats or belts are expired or not.

Yep, NA miata. I have an integrated harness bar already. I'm just dually-torn because of the price for everything along with the non-streetability of it.

Dusterbd13 wrote: I got out of hpde due to safety concerns.

Why?

So I assume you already have a rollbar with a harness bar?

BoxheadTim wrote: So I assume you already have a rollbar with a harness bar?

Correct, the Blackbird bars all have it integrated as part of the structure.

Get a kart and tow it behind the Miata. It'll be cheaper and you won't have to compromise the car for the streets.

Great bars, those. I had a GT3 bar in my last NA...

That does change the discussion slighty, IMHO. If you already have the rollbar with the harness bar, it might be worth investing in a seat and harness. IME a good seat makes a big difference to the feel of an NA Miata, but a good seat that fits an NA/NB is also going to be $$$. Don't be tempted by the "replicas" you can find on ebay etc, they're not really safe enough for track use.

Edit: Swapping a seat in a Miata should only take a few minutes, so that wouldn't necessarily be an impediment to me. As long as you can safely park the harness when not in use, that's probably the best compromise.

chaparral wrote: Get a kart and tow it behind the Miata. It'll be cheaper and you won't have to compromise the car for the streets.

I've done small-stuff-racing. I appreciate the input but I specifically want to track my street car and was hoping I could find a good dual-duty compromise. The racecar comment was a bit of a statement due to frustrastion. heh.

chaparral wrote: Get a kart and tow it behind the Miata. It'll be cheaper and you won't have to compromise the car for the streets.

I don't think karts are quite HPDE legal anymore...

Great idea otherwise.

BoxheadTim wrote: Great bars, those. I had a GT3 bar in my last NA... That does change the discussion slighty, IMHO. If you already have the rollbar with the harness bar, it might be worth investing in a seat and harness. IME a good seat makes a big difference to the feel of an NA Miata, but a good seat that fits an NA/NB is also going to be $$$. Don't be tempted by the "replicas" you can find on ebay etc, they're not really safe enough for track use.

Any recommendations for what would fit and possibly be dual-duty-possible? I had MOMO super cups with 6 points in my turbo car and I sold it bc it drove me nuts to drive daily. I really think swapping the seats and keeping the harnesses tucked away is the ticket, and keeping the airbag/3pt for street use. After all, I only use the hard top for track use and the seats come out REAL easy while the top is off.

IIRC several of the smaller Brides fit fine. I've had a Recaro SPG in mine, but that one touches the door card. Not by much, though, and if I had kept the car longer I would've modified the door card. Another option is used Elise seats, but they're expensive on this side of the pond.

If you can get one of the Bride recliners to fit, that'll probably be the best compromise. I never tried because I finally had to face reality and admit that I just don't fit NAs and NBs that well, no matter how much I like NAs.

How tall are you?

steronz wrote: How tall are you?

6'2. Foamectomy + rear seat mount removal got me to fit under the top with a helmet on.

BoxheadTim wrote: If you can get one of the Bride recliners to fit, that'll probably be the best compromise. I never tried because I finally had to face reality and admit that I just don't fit NAs and NBs that well, no matter how much I like NAs.

Most of the guys this weekend in NA race cars had dropped floorboards. Looked crazy spacious.

For seats, it might be best (certainly will be cheapest) to go aluminum and swap before and after the event. Track Dog Racing has pre-made aluminum seat brackets that you can purchase or copy which allow you to use the same mounting bolts as your stock seat (makes before/after swapping easier). Relocate your 3-point seatbelt clickers to the transmission tunnel (I think they're already here for NAs). Adjustable back braces can clamp onto your harness bar to make the aluminum seats pass club racing tech (overkill for HPDE but a good safety measure for cheap).

Most of the fiberglass seats are a pain to remove between events and you can't get as low as an aluminum. Downside to aluminum is comfort driving to/from the track (a cushion helps).

I just bought a set of these for my Miata:

Excuse my messy house. They're Corbeau LE Pros - made as a direct Elise seat replacement. Not FIA approved, but they have harness grommets and a fixed back while still being daily-able thanks to their lower bolsters than a full race seat.

They're expensive, especially if you believe common Lotus retailers (ahem sector111 ahem) but they're a little more reasonable if you go directly through Corbeau USA, and unlike used Elise seats, you can actually get them.

^^ Do they have a slot for the bottom 2 points?

Edit: I see they do. And that they're over $1k a piece. Holy moly.

Blaise wrote: ^^ Do they have a slot for the bottom 2 points? Edit: I see they do. And that they're over $1k a piece. Holy moly.

They do. They're also more like $700 each directly from Corbeau - which is still a lot, but you'll pay close to that for used Lotus seats with no slots. The padding is also removable if you need to get lower.

I'm surprised they let you run a DOT-M helmet.

You don't have to do this all at once. Getting more experience will make you safer too. Get a good SA2015 helmet first, then look at seat+harnesses.

If you're not going with an instructor, you only need one seat. Nothing wrong with expired harnesses for HPDE. HANS after the seat+harnesses.

There is inherent risk to HPDE and going out with all the goodies right off the bat is ideal, but it's not always a financial reality.

Resale on safety gear is horrible, so treat it like a sunk cost and make sure it's something you're going to use more than once.

Yeah, that's why I'm considering just getting an expired seat, harnesses, etc all in good shape. NASA allows running with a M2010 helmet. SA just adds fire resistance so no need esp without a fire suit.

I can afford to spend the money on the safety gear, especially if it's second hand. Just hard to swallow for a car I've got under $3k into total.

At 6'2" I personally wouldn't do another track day in the stock seats, but YMMV. Problem is head clearance and the dreaded broomstick test.

Here's my setup, Kirkey Intermediates basically sitting on the floor with some custom brackets, clip-in submarine belt to make it easier to get the seat in and out at the expense of ideal mounting location. I leave the other 4 points of the harness in the car at all times, along with the stock 3 point belt, and swap the seats out for track days.

I'm only 6' and I barely clear the broomstick test test this way. The Kirkeys are reasonably affordable, easy to work with, and fit just fine with some slight massaging of the outward shoulder supports.

At 6'2", you're probably going to need to modify the floor to get enough height to come in under the roll bar. You might get away with just cutitng out the factory seat mounts and bolting that Corbeau directly to the floor -- I'm 6'0" and that works for me with my seats (Recaro Pole Positions). It does, however, make the seats a pain in the butt to swap back and forth. Also, harnesses tend to be somewhat complicate to remove as well, they usually won't just slide out through the seat holes but need to be unthreaded from the hardware and/or unbolted.

Those Corbeaus look like they'll work well with 3-point belts in street use, which is good.