Hypothetical street mpg/fun build

ProDarwin wrote: 1. Buy a DOHC model. 2. Get the 5th gear from a MP2 (SOHC) transmission. It can be swapped to the DOHC trans w/o removing the trans from the car (remove outer case from wheel-well). Just Google "saturn 5th gear swap". The MP2 5th is quite a bit lower. Over 40 should be doable without much trouble. 3. Big rear bar, stiff springs, lowering, alignment and 15x7.5 wheels/ST tires (or 15x8 if you care not about classing). Intake, exhaust, SAFC if you care about classing, MS otherwise. ST* build should weigh in the 2300lb range and make ~135whp. No rocket, but plenty of fun on the street. Downside is performance parts are hard to find new. Upside is the Saturn community is stupid poor and people unload their cars & mods for $dirt on a daily basis. Fwiw, I probably had $2500 into this car: I didn't do the 5th swap - it never spent much time on the highway, and as a result avg mpg was only around 30. Its pretty much your only option for a light wagon/decent power that is less than 20 years old and not saturated with rust. You'll spend a lot of time searching for decent aftermarket parts though :(

That is a really good looking saturn. I approve.

tuna55 wrote: Apparently the DOHC and SOHC had a different ratio for top gear. I am looking for answers to that, as well as many others.

FWIW, the SOHC and DOHC had an entirely different gearset, although final drive was the same. They are the same trans otherwise, so they swap easily. A lot of people like to just do the 5th gear swap for a couple more hwy mpg and a keep the "sporty" lower ratios. 5th in the DOHC is still much lower than something like the Miata or S2000 and comes in handy on 6 or 7% grades @ 80mph and also in town at 35mph.

If you have plenty of time on your hands a lot can be done with the car for very little $$ from swapping different engine components, trans components, and tweaking stock parts here and there.

What other questions did you want answered?

ProDarwin wrote:

tuna55 wrote: Apparently the DOHC and SOHC had a different ratio for top gear. I am looking for answers to that, as well as many others.

FWIW, the SOHC and DOHC had an entirely different gearset, although final drive was the same. They are the same trans otherwise, so they swap easily. A lot of people like to just do the 5th gear swap for a couple more hwy mpg and a keep the "sporty" lower ratios. 5th in the DOHC is still much lower than something like the Miata or S2000 and comes in handy on 6 or 7% grades @ 80mph and also in town at 35mph. If you have plenty of time on your hands a lot can be done with the car for very little $$ from swapping different engine components, trans components, and tweaking stock parts here and there. What other questions did you want answered?

Dude, thank you.

1: "Plenty of time"? Is the gear swap a really tough thing to do?

2: What options are there for bars/springs/etc?

3: What does MS and SAFC mean?

tuna55 wrote:

volvoclearinghouse wrote: Here, go buy these. http://athensga.craigslist.org/cto/4641811690.html And quit making that face. I think the answer to your question is: "Don't buy a Saturn".

Clearly a primer rattle can Volvo which apparently comes with another car, the details of which are as follows: seems to be mostly white. Bonus points for ridiculously terrible wheels and no condition of any sort even implied in the ad. You sure can pick 'em.

It was the only result when I CL'd "Volvo 122" in your area.

I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around using warmer air and a higher air: fuel ratio. Does it have something to do with measuring air flow via mass versus some other method, thus tricking the computer?

tuna55 wrote: Dude, thank you. 1: "Plenty of time"? Is the gear swap a really tough thing to do? 2: What options are there for bars/springs/etc? 3: What does MS and SAFC mean?

1. No, gear swap is easy. Even the whole trans swap is a pretty simple thing. By plenty of time I meant you could get into other combos of stock parts to have fun, like a high comp engine, or a low comp motor for boost, tuning with the stock PCM, etc.

2. Not many. H&R Sports + KYB GR2 is a reasonable DD combo that is good fun and still competent at a local autox. Stiffer than that and you're looking at used coilovers, or adapting a set of WRX coilovers. Some in the community are working on a different top plate to make the WRX coilovers a bolt-in affair. For swaybars, just find someone selling a used 17.5-19mm bar. I don't think you'll find any new ones.

3. MS = Megasquirt, SAFC = Super Air Fuel Controller (signal modifier legal for ST*)

Oh, and one thing I didn't mention earlier - stay away from 99+ cars. They switched heads 1/2way through '99 and the 99 and up motor has less parts for it as well as heads that flow like E36 M3.

volvoclearinghouse wrote:

tuna55 wrote:

volvoclearinghouse wrote: Here, go buy these. http://athensga.craigslist.org/cto/4641811690.html And quit making that face. I think the answer to your question is: "Don't buy a Saturn".

Clearly a primer rattle can Volvo which apparently comes with another car, the details of which are as follows: seems to be mostly white. Bonus points for ridiculously terrible wheels and no condition of any sort even implied in the ad. You sure can pick 'em.

It was the only result when I CL'd "Volvo 122" in your area. I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around using _warmer_ air and a higher air: fuel ratio. Does it have something to do with measuring air flow via mass versus some other method, thus tricking the computer?

I am pretty sure it is intended to purposely make the engine make less power, so that your throttling losses are less.

I am also sure I'd have to do back to back tests to confirm, because engines like dense air, so sayeth the dragstrip. Happy engines are efficient engines.

Anyway, we do heat air for efficiency at partial load in my industry. Very hot. It's much better at partial load, making a 1% improvement in heat rate, but I don't think there is much of a gain at all at baseload (normal throttle).

tuna55 wrote:

volvoclearinghouse wrote:

tuna55 wrote:

volvoclearinghouse wrote: Here, go buy these. http://athensga.craigslist.org/cto/4641811690.html And quit making that face. I think the answer to your question is: "Don't buy a Saturn".

Clearly a primer rattle can Volvo which apparently comes with another car, the details of which are as follows: seems to be mostly white. Bonus points for ridiculously terrible wheels and no condition of any sort even implied in the ad. You sure can pick 'em.

It was the only result when I CL'd "Volvo 122" in your area. I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around using _warmer_ air and a higher air: fuel ratio. Does it have something to do with measuring air flow via mass versus some other method, thus tricking the computer?

I am pretty sure it is intended to purposely make the engine make less power, so that your throttling losses are less. I am also sure I'd have to do back to back tests to confirm, because engines like dense air, so sayeth the dragstrip. Happy engines are efficient engines. Anyway, we do heat air for efficiency at partial load in my industry. Very hot. It's much better at partial load, making a 1% improvement in heat rate, but I don't think there is much of a gain at all at baseload (normal throttle).

So, sort of like a diesel, in that you lean the engine way the heck out at everything other than WOT, and keep the throttle as wide open as possible? I guess that makes sense in theory, though it couldn't be much fun to drive, and for a 1% improvement in efficiency in a street car I wouldn't do it. But I can see why you would claw and fight for such an efficiency gain in your industry.

Just out of curiosity, how much is this hypothetical Saturn going to get you back? I hate to be the voice of reason (hey, I'm doing that more and more now lately, I guess I'm practicing at being a father) but by the time you register and insure the +1 car, and do even a basic maintenance on it, it's going to tack on another few hundred dollars.

In reply to volvoclearinghouse:

The lease for the LEAF will end in a year, and the lease costs have gone up a bit. I have to find out if buying a cheap car is going to be more cost effective than buying the LEAF or leasing another one. The first part of this is figuring out what options are out there and how much they cost.

As expected, situations change. Instead of carting three kids to school and back every day, I now pick up one kid once a week. The safety/reliability of the car may not be as important.

But we're a year out, and things very well may change again.

The minivan stays, the second car is up in the air.

volvoclearinghouse wrote: So, sort of like a diesel, in that you lean the engine way the heck out at everything other than WOT, and keep the throttle as wide open as possible? I guess that makes sense in theory, though it couldn't be much fun to drive, and for a 1% improvement in efficiency in a street car I wouldn't do it. But I can see why you would claw and fight for such an efficiency gain in your industry.

Yeah, I am pretty sure that's it. In my industry, a 1% improvement in efficiency can mean a few extra tens of millions in sales for the year, because the users will use enough less natural gas to more than make up for it.

Them folks love them some turndown. Yummy.

My $500 1999 SW2 swapped with my rebuilt 1995 LL0

Video outside inside

Max the caster (free):

I would do the H&R Race springs, if not custom springs. I wish the 22 mm rear bar was more available. The SOHC front bar is also a good idea. I was surprised how much it understeered with the stock front bar. Then again it probably weighs a lot more the 1995 SC2 too.

My former 1995 SW2:

eg si hatch add konis/gcs/good tires and a big rear bar 40mpg and good STC car

done

Matthew Huizing wrote: Max the caster (free):

I did that on my brick. I think it's the single best thing about modifying strut cars.

As far as bars go, it sounds like it may be time to employ the old Lemons trick of doubling up the stockers on both ends. I would have to do the math first, but that works well on the crapcans.

tuna55 wrote: As far as bars go, it sounds like it may be time to employ the old Lemons trick of doubling up the stockers on both ends. I would have to do the math first, but that works well on the crapcans.

Definitely not really possible on the front. The front sway actually locates the control arm as it is a true macpherson setup. The rear might be possible. Now I wish I had pulled the rear bar off the SC2 before it was scrapped. They use fairly thin steel brackets to attach the rear bar to the struts.

H&R Race

solfly wrote: eg si hatch add konis/gcs/good tires and a big rear bar 40mpg and good STC car done

I was going to suggest a Civic hatch from the '90s. It seems to be the go to car over on ecomodder.

Swank Force One wrote:

tuna55 wrote:

Swank Force One wrote: I'd start with a Neon instead.

I really want a hatchback. But fine. Go ahead and preach-on, brother SF1. Tell me of your Neon recipe for the same.

Oh, that might be a problem, then, sorry. I'd roll with an SOHC car, use the longer trans (can't remember if DOHC or SOHC had the longer one, been awhile, sorry.), intake/header/exhaust, Mopar ECU. Should easily pull down mid to high 30s, and it doesn't take much to make a Neon handle. Bonus: There's so many of these in junkyards that you'd never have to buy any repair parts for more than $5.

This guy knows his E36 M3. Mid 30s in a regular SOHC sedan w/Manual Trans (all non-ACR SOHC 1gns had a 3.55 Final Drive ratio).

Motor let go @ 160k. Hoping to have her ready for winter. .020, DOHC pistons to bump compression. Might do header and PCM in spring if I don't go back to a Jeep. Took it on many solo trips up north with no issues.

A MUCH better car than my 99 Buick Century.

Civics are usually much more expensive than Saturns.

Very true. I've noticed Foci seem to depreciate rapidly. I wonder if there are any low hanging mpg fruit on those...

Matthew Huizing wrote:

tuna55 wrote: As far as bars go, it sounds like it may be time to employ the old Lemons trick of doubling up the stockers on both ends. I would have to do the math first, but that works well on the crapcans.

Definitely not really possible on the front. The front sway actually locates the control arm as it is a true macpherson setup.

Why is it not possible? Couldn't I just add another directly below it and make up a link with some balljoints that attach to a different spot on the knuckle?

You wouldn't want to increase the front bar that much anyway. You wouldn't be able to put down any power in a corner at all.

If you DID want to increase it, just weld a piece of angle-iron to the straight section.

ProDarwin wrote: You wouldn't want to increase the front bar that much anyway. You wouldn't be able to put down any power in a corner at all. If you DID want to increase it, just weld a piece of angle-iron to the straight section.

Good call.

Related question... LSD available?

Quaife ($$$$) makes one, Mfactory does too, much more reasonably priced. Both are torsen type.

Fiat X19 (I'm sensing a pattern lately) and an uncorked TDI.

Mid-engined, torque for days, turbo noises, aerodynamic wedge. Sounds amazing to me.

Burrito Enthusiast wrote: Fiat X19 (I'm sensing a pattern lately) and an uncorked TDI.

Yes, because that's certainly a four seat hatchback!

ProDarwin wrote: Quaife ($$$$) makes one, Mfactory does too, much more reasonably priced. Both are torsen type.

$750 may as well be $Texas for the Mfactory job

In reply to tuna55:

Get a trailer for the kiddies...