FWIW, I attended my first autocross in three years or so Sunday in San Francisco. FTD was a 1987 911. Second fastest was a '2005 GT3. You'd have trouble convincing the 150 some odd drivers present that rear-engined Porsches were slow and outdated
Interestingly, the third and fourth slots were filled by RX8s. That was a surprise. I didn't know that they were so competitive.
P71 wrote: It's not just one though, we usually have 6-7 ones at every event. Some of the drivers have been autocrossing since before I was born!
I outran EVERY 911 in my run group at a PCA track-day at Putnum Park. There were 80's 90's and brandy new ones out there. I even got the point by from a GT3. All told there were probably 8-9 911's that I was faster than, In my 1986 Pontiac fiero V-6 with 135 HP. However I would NEVER say or imply that a 911 isn't a better/faster car. I've driven 3-4 911's at Autox, and they are VERY fast. I set FTD/FTDI in one on a fun run (I believe it was the same one EricM talked about driving for 52 seconds (I think I got to drive it for 46 seconds)). I have noticed a lot of 911 drivers are not that good, but don't let that make you think the cars are slow. I guarantee if you ever got your hands on one of those 6-7 911's at your events you'd kick your own ass.
I dunno man, some of the drivers are Nationals SCCA winners. These guys can drive. The water-cooled 911's (with the real drivers anyways) kick my ass, but I've yet to get beaten by an aircooled one by more than about a tenth. I've riden in a few, but have never had the opportunity to drive one.
Spring Break-Out this year: Eric Freedle 1986 Porsche 911 54.845 0.337 4.074 23 NP 15 Michael Pinto 1984 Mazda RX-7 54.851
That's an 86 911 (I don't what trim/model/etc) on A6's against a 12A RX7 on Rt615's.
I wouldn't say I dislike them as much as I just don't get German cars, period. I am half Italian though so it's probably genetics.
vazbmw wrote: In reply to Duke: I would love to have an old 930, I am afraid of the hidden cost of ownership. I don't know what to believe. I hear if you get a bad one you will go bankrupt or have to steal your mother's vcr to pay for repairs (like a crack addict) What is the truth on cost to maintain and to enjoy?
I'd like to know this too...
I saw "$4K" is doable for an engine rebuild if "you roll up your sleeves" in an earlier post. That's on the high end for me, but I compare everything to SBC which really isn't very reasonable of me.
What do things like suspension, interior, drivetrain, etc replacement parts cost for the 911? I hear both "They don't cost more to maintain than anything else," and "The cost of upkeep is outrageous" in the same thread (paraphrased...not really quotes).
I'd like to hear some first hand experience from someone who has maintained and/or restored one...
Thanks! Clem
Unfortunately, Hyundai doesn't make a rotary powered P71, so our board members will never truly be happy.
If you outran a bevy of porsches at a DE, that merely says one of the following:
It's a DE. You have no idea how hard they were pushing, if they wanted to push, etc. It's not a race.
docwyte wrote: If you outran a bevy of porsches at a DE, that merely says one of the following: #1 You're a better driver then they are #2 You're more comfortable sacrificing your Fiero then they are sacrificing their Porsche It's a DE. You have no idea how hard they were pushing, if they wanted to push, etc. It's not a race.
I know, that's my point. Simply assuming that the car is suspect because you were faster than it doesn't tell you anything.
walterj wrote:AngryCorvair wrote:+911David S. Wallens wrote: I pick up my 911 tonight. I'll post some pictures from the return trip.Go David Go!
Thanks. Car looks great. And yes, it sounds beautiful. Sometimes a car is more than just numbers.
I'll never forget the first time that attended a PCA club racing event at Lime Rock as a spectator. I came away from it with a few surprises.
Foremost, I was impressed at just how fast these cars were getting around the track and the fact that the drivers weren't afraid to really flog them.
I also expected to see a bunch of wealthy, arrogant bastards. Instead, I found a bunch of regular guys who happened to own Porsches. Often they were very competent mechanics and drivers, hauling their race cars on modest trailers with run of the mill (though well maintained) Chevy pickups.
Finally, it was nice to see old and new cars mixed in together. Old Porsches remain Porsches. All of them had the heart of a race car and were obviously built by a company who understood that concept.
Where are the pictures? Please tell me this is gonna be a new project for the mag.
okay, looks like I can't quote properly.
David - where are the pictures and details?
nocones wrote:P71 wrote: It's not just one though, we usually have 6-7 ones at every event. Some of the drivers have been autocrossing since before I was born!I outran EVERY 911 in my run group at a PCA track-day at Putnum Park. There were 80's 90's and brandy new ones out there. I even got the point by from a GT3. All told there were probably 8-9 911's that I was faster than, In my 1986 Pontiac fiero V-6 with 135 HP. However I would NEVER say or imply that a 911 isn't a better/faster car. I've driven 3-4 911's at Autox, and they are VERY fast. I set FTD/FTDI in one on a fun run (I believe it was the same one EricM talked about driving for 52 seconds (I think I got to drive it for 46 seconds)). I have noticed a lot of 911 drivers are not that good, but don't let that make you think the cars are slow. I guarantee if you ever got your hands on one of those 6-7 911's at your events you'd kick your own ass.
My wife used to kick a lot of Ducati 916 / 996 ass with her 40hp - 2 ft of torque 125cc motorcycle at Putnam.
I don't think that the 80's 911 is that tail happy. I had a 86 turbo look when I was 17 and drove it like an ass all day, everyday. I never once spun it out (that was not on purpose).
vazbmw wrote: In reply to Duke: I would love to have an old 930, I am afraid of the hidden cost of ownership. I don't know what to believe. I hear if you get a bad one you will go bankrupt or have to steal your mother's vcr to pay for repairs (like a crack addict) What is the truth on cost to maintain and to enjoy?
I don't think I've even seen a VCR in years. I guess the crack addicts and aircooled porsche owners stole them all...
I've got an 85 targa - took a chance and bought one cheap on e-bay. It was maintained great by the first owner - not so much by the second. It's tired, the syncros are weak and it's got a190k on it. Thing is it still pulls like a train, sounds great - couple of tweaks with brakes, tires and it's so cool when you get it right. If you can drive an old 911 fast, you can probably drive about anything fast. The reverse isn't necessarily true. Costs are not bad - replaced a windshield for 275. Brakes were about $125 for front rotors and pads. Fixed some electrics without any costs. A headlight was something like $25. You can spend stupid money on them if you want - you don't have to.
ClemSparks wrote:vazbmw wrote: In reply to Duke: I would love to have an old 930, I am afraid of the hidden cost of ownership.I'd like to know this too... I saw "$4K" is doable for an engine rebuild if "you roll up your sleeves" in an earlier post. That's on the high end for me, but I compare everything to SBC which really isn't very reasonable of me. What do things like suspension, interior, drivetrain, etc replacement parts cost for the 911? I hear both "They don't cost more to maintain than anything else," and "The cost of upkeep is outrageous" in the same thread (paraphrased...not really quotes). I'd like to hear some first hand experience from someone who has maintained and/or restored one... Thanks! Clem
The brakes, suspension, rubber bits are all pretty reasonable if you are used to VW or old BMW prices from worldpac suppliers. The sheetmetal is very expensive as are engine internals. If you stay pre-1990 most stuff is cheap. THe 964 has some silly expensive parts that are hard to come by - like er... a $1900 master cylinder. This is where the "stuff is reusable" line from my earlier post comes in. I paid a machine shop to bore and sleeve mine for under $200 - the early cars are about $100 for a new one. Go figure.
BUT, if you do your homework and get a good solid motor and trans they are long lived and solid. A "rebuild" that is more of a "refresh" is usually what a tired motor needs and is the same level of cost as all machine shop work plus rings, bearings and seals. You can spend 12k if you want to but you don't have to.
There are gotchas to look out for like head studs pulling out and other badness that is very Porsche specific so have a real expert look it over so you feel good about the price. When I see an $8k 80s 911 I immediately think... somebody just got home from the mechanic and needs to unload this because they are in over their head. Don't be that guy and you will be fine.
Oh... stay away from the 930s - they are some awesome cars but that motor seems to suck cash and remain fickle.
P71 wrote:forzav12 wrote: I'm glad all the emo Honda/Mazda/Nissan/Sube/whatever kids don't get the older 911. Leave them to those of us that can drive and prefer involvement with our enthusiast vehicles. We don't give a rodent's posterior about Ipod hook-ups, cup holders, traction assist, antilock brakes, GPS,carbon footprints,we aren't afraid of oversteer, don't need power assisted everything for our spindly little video game trained arms to operate,understand what a proper dead pedal is, know how to heel and toe and double clutch and pay attention to the art of driving when heading out to our favorite road.Forza, I normally agree with you on everything, but there's no reason to classify everybody that doesn't get 911's as emo kids who need to be pampered. I don't get Porsche's period and my racing weapon of choice is a 26-year old Mazda with manual steering, no ABS, no traction control, a manual gearbox, and a carburetor on a fussy rotary! I burn as much oil as gas, oversteer like a drifter, and have forearms like Popeye now because of that car. Classic sports cars are "involving" no matter the make.
Of course, I was to some extent, being factious.
Don't get me wrong, I enjoy my modern iron nearly as much as the classics. Heck, I've even owned a few RX7s and still believe the last gen 7 to be the most attractive Japanese car ever built. I'm just saying that vintage 911s require a proper set-up and a skilled driver. When properly dialed in and pedaled with enthusiasm, they are surprisingly quick and provide unmatched driver involvement. I'm probably not as familiar with their auto crossing competence, as that isn't my motor sport of choice. I have road raced 911s, driven them in cross country open road races and terrorized many a canyon road with one-I did, however, pass about half the Porsches at a PCA time trial years ago in my Buick Grand National-doesn't mean the Buick handled better!
Many of today's "enthusiast" vehicles reward incompetent drivers rather than introduce them to a ditch. The early 911s require skill-I prefer that.
Chris_V wrote: Never heard an early air cooled 6 cyl with sport exhaust and open triple throat carbs at full song, then, have you? Sounds like Le Mans. I LOVED to zing my '69 S up to 8k rpm for that reason alone.
No, the most "uncorked" one I've ever heard was at American LeMans at Infineon back when the Chevy was still campaigning the C5R.
Let's just say I can't put enough vitriol in the word "cacophony" to express just how bad those 911s sounded, especially when they were following the glorious song of a C5R at full tilt.
I'd really like to drive an 911, I just don't want to hear it when I do.
P71 wrote: .I wouldn't say I dislike them as much as I just don't get German cars, period. I am half Italian though so it's probably genetics.
So where the hell is the Alfa, most of the Italians I know, would ride a Vespa before resorting to a Japanese car.
I've read before that the 911 represents a triumph of development over engineering.
ClemSparks wrote: I'd like to know this too... I saw "$4K" is doable for an engine rebuild if "you roll up your sleeves" in an earlier post. That's on the high end for me, but I compare everything to SBC which really isn't very reasonable of me. What do things like suspension, interior, drivetrain, etc replacement parts cost for the 911? I hear both "They don't cost more to maintain than anything else," and "The cost of upkeep is outrageous" in the same thread (paraphrased...not really quotes). I'd like to hear some first hand experience from someone who has maintained and/or restored one...
Well, I'm doing some of the maintenance on mine myself and leave the rest to a well regarded specialist over here so I'm probably semi-qualified to comment.
Most of the parts on 911s seem to be designed to last a very long time; Trouble is that when they need replacing, it'll cost you but at least you'll know that you don't have to replace them again anytime soon. Some of the parts are just stupidly expensive. I am in the process of replacing the roof and door seals on mine and four bits of rubber - two roof seals and the front and back seals - plus the headliner cost me something like $750. That's from a reputable supplier for OEM-shaped parts as opposed to stuff that comes in a Porsche box but needs trimming (want to take a knife to a $300 seal?). Also, Porsche parts tend to be a bit more expensive over here in the UK compared to the US or Germany.
IME the most important buying advice is not to buy someone else's headache. I almost managed that, but the expert who inspected the car missed a bad repair to the front suspension pan. Getting that sorted out properly was a pain in the wallet, but then I opted for restoration instead of repair work. There are some areas on the body that are just a pain to repair and will cost you, so try buying one that either doesn't need to be repaired in those areas or has had a decent job done there.
There are a lot of shops that deliver mediocre work for loadsamoney because all Porsche drivers are rich know nothings but if you're plugged into the right sort of forum you can usually find someone reputable who'll do a good job on your car for very reasonable money.
A lot of the parts are available second hand and unless you're building a numbers matching 100 point resto, upgrades often work out cheaper than period-correct parts...
Both from my experience and other people's experience it seems that you can throw away a fortune by buying the wrong one but if you buy a good one will last and won't be that much more expensive if you only have to maintain it. Once you're looking at repairing something (which doesn't happen that often if you bought a good one), things get a little expensive compared to run of the mill cars.
Ahhh... the 911.
Any questions?
Why bother posting if all you're gonna do is put up a picture of that expensive to maintain, hard to drive, gas guzzling, no AC psudo 4 seater? Why don't you tells what you love about it?
I think the picture says quite a lot. Gorgeous, instantly recognisable 911 lines, with some nice '80s touches like the whale-tail, pumped-out guards and dished Fuchs. I imagine he's out for a spirited drive in the country, with lovely weather to boot. You can almost hear the engine ticking as it cools off.
I'll own a 911 someday. Definitely one of my dream cars. Looking forward to seeing pics of David's, too!
I guess I better try to bum a ride off a 911 driver at the next autocross. Looks like I'm outnumber here with my dislike of the car.
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