I have seen the future (GM) and it is brilliant.

NOHOME wrote:

2002maniac wrote: http://www.forbes.com/sites/louiswoodhill/2012/08/15/general-motors-is-headed-for-bankruptcy-again/

Well, at least this time I amnot alone in predicting doom and gloom for GM. This editorial speaks to my point. GM has some of the best technical assets on the planet. That is not up for dispute. So how do they consistently perpetrate one market fiasco after another? And to those that still think that leaving the steering on the wrong side is OK, how many Japanese or Korean cars are marketed in NA with RH Controls? Maybe we should take a hint from those that are winning at the game rather than defending what is not working? My main exposure to NA cars is via the rental fleet. And while it would seem like a great opportunity to showcase ability and entice one to go home and buy the product, they tend to have the opposite effect. As to those who call me a "Hater" I am not clear on your logic ( "Hater" being a 14 year old's expression there may not be any). If I am standing at Grandpas deathbed and express the opinion the "he aint gonna make it", would you call me a "Grandpa Hater"? I consider myself an "observer". I simply feel that I am observing another slow motion train wreck.

Read my rebuttal link, also at Forbes.

simply one guy's opinion; i try to think of anything that GM does that interests me at all. nothing comes to mind.

i bought a brand new car two months ago. i felt i had no reason to step foot at any one of their dealerships.

sincerely, beltshazzar, married 35 year old father of two.

my dad bought his first new car ever last month. he's over 60. he test drove 8 cars at 5 dealerships. none of them were GM products. i'd say it's genetic, but he had a malibu once in the early 80's....

Perception is everything. For example in the election people share absolute horse poo about the other guy. I dont hear anything about how a guy has actually performed or what he wants to achieve specifically. I feel that we are basing our opinions on pre conceived notions. Sure Japanese cars were very reliable for many years.So were American cars. Does that make either world class? How many Toyotas have been recalled just this year?Almost everything I hear about a Corvette is about what the writer percieves of its image. DRIVE ONE! The newer cars are really fast. And fun. Any new car with a hand built 500 HP 427, aluminum frame and magnetic shocks is better for me than an econocar with drum brakes,14" wheels and a fart pipe. And the next gen Vette looks to be planets better. Only saw the exterior but can confirm it is verrry shapely. My Lacrosse demo is an all out luxury car and gets 36MPG. I hear lots of crap about the Volt. Has anyone driven one? Its an excellent car.Tight,quick,highly innovative,attractive,solid feeling... Can GM survive its legacy costs? I dunno, ahead of my pay grade. Does it have the people and ability to produce exceptionally good product? ABSOLUTELY. Is the next gen stuff as good as anything else available here? In my opinion its better.Umm world class? I live in America (proudly) Our vehicles are mostly designed to be used here. A Chinese moped is not designed for use on a Texas interstate. On this issue and in this election my hope is that we put our pre conceived notions where they belong and have an open eyed look at what is really going on now.

ls1fiero wrote: Perception is everything. For example in the election people share absolute horse poo about the other guy. I dont hear anything about how a guy has actually performed or what he wants to achieve specifically. I feel that we are basing our opinions on pre conceived notions. Sure Japanese cars were very reliable for many years.So were American cars. Does that make either world class? How many Toyotas have been recalled just this year?Almost everything I hear about a Corvette is about what the writer percieves of its image. DRIVE ONE! The newer cars are really fast. And fun. Any new car with a hand built 500 HP 427, aluminum frame and magnetic shocks is better for me than an econocar with drum brakes,14" wheels and a fart pipe. And the next gen Vette looks to be planets better. Only saw the exterior but can confirm it is verrry shapely. My Lacrosse demo is an all out luxury car and gets 36MPG. I hear lots of crap about the Volt. Has anyone driven one? Its an excellent car.Tight,quick,highly innovative,attractive,solid feeling... Can GM survive its legacy costs? I dunno, ahead of my pay grade. Does it have the people and ability to produce exceptionally good product? ABSOLUTELY. Is the next gen stuff as good as anything else available here? In my opinion its better.Umm world class? I live in America (proudly) Our vehicles are mostly designed to be used here. A Chinese moped is not designed for use on a Texas interstate. On this issue and in this election my hope is that we put our pre conceived notions where they belong and have an open eyed look at what is really going on now.

So far, you have posted the most well thought out response in this thread.

We both agree that GM can and does make some good product. YOU tell me why the vette has not taken over the exotic world? If GM is to suceed, it must answer and overcome that question. You are the second person to say that the Vette is "Our Car". That makes it by definition "non world class".

The example is the vette, but the problem is planetary. The USA is a small fish is a large pond. (Funny how that happened ) If the rest of the people on the planet do not buy our NA cars, there is no chance that the domestic market could support the industry even if we made it law to buy the things.

China and India have 2.5 billion consumers. The USA has .34 billion. People in emergin markets want cars across their entire economic spectrum; from poor to rich and young to old The good news market-wise is that the great ponzi scheme that we call an economy is just starting over in those countries. Sucks to be us because NA it is in the middle of unraveling at the end of its 60 year ponzi economy. The NA automakers need to sell cars to these emerging markets and they need to do so by creating desire. I just dont see this happening. It is not hate, it is an observation.

NOHOME wrote: World class cars... Cadillac used to be the symbol of automotive quality and a status statement.Somewhere along the line, GM decided that it was going to not go head to head with the Mercedes and BMWs of the world and just concentrate on the domestic market by selling soft and cheap cars that coasted on the Cadillac name. Cut-rate and luxury tend to be mutually exclusive concepts and the results on a world opinion basis reflect the results. Cadillac could do much more if they were willing and able to take the luxury oponents on with an unapologetic head to head pricetag. Why do they not do so? If people wont buy their top end luxury cars for the same as they pay for a Merc or BMW, then GM needs to figure it out and fix it.

I'm far from a GM fanboi (never owned a GM product, to my recollection), but I do spend a LOT of time around "car people" (and not just on GRM), and the CTS variants (especially the CTS-V) is certainly not a "soft and cheap car coasting on the Cadillac name." In fact, if I was in the market for a luxury car, Cadillac would be at the top of my list to jump into a V. Benz, wouldn't even bother with. Benzes are old people cars to me (I'm 37) or cars for people who aren't into driving. Benzes are what I consider to be "soft" cars these days (aside from some of the AMG models). BMW has gone beyond my "bullE36 M3-in-the-car-o-meter" at this point, especially in the higher range. I don't want a car that requires an instruction manual to operate half the systems (and I've always been a BMW fan)...

As to Buick....yeah, I can't get over the old people perception there either, even though I do like some of their new cars (especially those equipped with a manual transmission). But they do sell like hotcakes in China to the upper-class, where they're the trendiest car to own for people in that income range. And China is a much bigger market than the small portion of the US that Buick has historically had as a customer base.

I don't doubt that GM is making some decent cars or that their production and testing facilities are very nice places run by smart folks who are proud of what they do, but if GM is so great why are they still owned mostly by the US Treasury?

If we want to have a nationalized automotive industry, let's just officially change the name to Government Motors and be done with it.

Well, look at the new Viper. It looks like they took the basic raw nature of the Viper but refined it into something that might actually sell overseas.

At the same time look at the general feedback of fords fiesta/focus/and now fusion and the quality of design and materials people are commenting on.

Part of this is "ford europe" and the fact they are designing cars for the world first and america specifically second. I think this is part of GM's problem.

We don't need our cars to be American in design for us to buy them as American consumers. If we did then how come so many imports are on the road?

I am hoping the Cadillac ATS is GM doing it right but I have yet to see/drive/ride in one personally and am already over their two male models are going to drive the car and call each-other dude ads on youtube

Still I am jealous of your getting to go to an event like that I bet it was awesome

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/rental-car-showdown-buick-regal-turbo-vs-ford-taur/50380/page1/

I drove both the new Regal Turbo and Taurus Limited back to back a few months ago. I drove both for several hours over the course of a few days.

I, and everyone else that also got to ride in both, unanimously preferred the Taurus. Taurus was roomier, had nicer interior materials and was more comfortable, had nicer tech features, and cost about the same as the Buick.

I think GM is making steps in the right direction, but they are definitely still a few steps behind Ford these days.

And my Apple stock is performing quite nicely thank you!

Excellent, so clearly the solution is to outsource GM's labor needs to countries with next to no labor rights with workers who will bend over backwards until their back breaks so they can make $2/day instead of $1/day, and that will allow GM to make world class cars because those pesky labor unions wont be holding them back with their snobby, elitist middle class demands!

That was a nice touch of plausible deniability you added by saying that you would like to see the unions voluntarily push their people to work harder for the sheer satisfaction of knowing your opinion of GM would go up, but the rest of your anti-union sentiment is unlikely to make you many friends. My original statement stands: Blaming mediocre design on assembly line workers is absolute bullE36 M3.

Two things

1. Again please define what a "world class car" is.

2. It is ok to predict the GM is going to fail. I have not problem with that. However the Government will never let it fail. If you figure out how many jobs would be lost due to GM going under (and I am talking about all those in the supply chain not just those that work for GM directly) You are talking 10'smaby 100's of millions of jobs. The government will not let it happen. If it did we (as in the USA) would be screwed. Like it or not that is the way it is. You can argue this all day long but it does not change the facts.

HOWEVER The accusations you made about the line workers is unacceptable. You come across as ignorant with you accusations that all GM line workers are waiting for 5:00 to roll around and do as little as possible while waiting. That is just wrong. I dare you to go to a UAW local and make that speech. It equates to saying that everyone of one particular nationality are drunks. It is an ignorant statement. It has no place is civilized discussion. It is inflammatory and provocative crap that convolutes a debate with false truths. I am sure that you realise that an argument that is based on a premise that is not true makes the argument a sham.

Getting back to my first question. We can not even debate if GM is making a world class car until we define what it is.

Now here is the rub with this. Ask 10 people to define it and you will get 10 different answers. It is my belief that there is no such thing a a world class car. It is something that a marketing guru's came up with and every one fell for it. When in fact there is no such thing. There is no such thing as a world class car. It simply does not exist.

How much would a Corvette cost in the UK? I imagine that after import costs, VAT, and everything, it's quite a lot more than in the US.

I haven't driven a GM since about 2005. I sold Chevys for a few months. They ( the ones I got to drive; aveo, malibu, impala, hhr, the SUVs) were all boring and some horrible( aveo I'm looking at you). I would love to try a vette some day. But after driving those it made me appreciate my ford focus all the more and Im still driving it. I have thought about a solstice or hhr ss for my next car though maybe.....

One other thing people. There is a huge market for appliances. GM has mastered the art of making them. Someone has to do it.

I have not driven a C6 but I drive a C5 T1 car and I needed a "grin-ectomy".

In reply to failboat:It sounds like you are an American living in America.Of course you liked the Taurus. It is an American car. Designed and built for Americans. The Regal is really an Opel. Designed and built for Europeans. They are different ya know. This goes to my earlier point of the "world class" moped.

I like what GM is doing and I really think they are taking a lot of steps in the right direction. The CTS-V is beyond awesome and I would buy one before any Benz or BMW especially as wagon. If you don't think the CTS-V is a world class car you need your head checked out and I am the first to admit I have a very European taste in cars. Also in terms of small cars, Chevy is taking major steps in the right direction. The Sonic isn't the best car in the class but it is lot better then what Toyota, Honda or Nissan offer.

Also Corvette= awesome despite what Clarkson says.

belteshazzar wrote: simply one guy's opinion; i try to think of anything that GM does that interests me at all. nothing comes to mind. i bought a brand new car two months ago. i felt i had no reason to step foot at any one of their dealerships. sincerely, beltshazzar, married 35 year old father of two.

What did you buy?

NOHOME wrote:

ls1fiero wrote: Perception is everything. For example in the election people share absolute horse poo about the other guy. I dont hear anything about how a guy has actually performed or what he wants to achieve specifically. I feel that we are basing our opinions on pre conceived notions. Sure Japanese cars were very reliable for many years.So were American cars. Does that make either world class? How many Toyotas have been recalled just this year?Almost everything I hear about a Corvette is about what the writer percieves of its image. DRIVE ONE! The newer cars are really fast. And fun. Any new car with a hand built 500 HP 427, aluminum frame and magnetic shocks is better for me than an econocar with drum brakes,14" wheels and a fart pipe. And the next gen Vette looks to be planets better. Only saw the exterior but can confirm it is verrry shapely. My Lacrosse demo is an all out luxury car and gets 36MPG. I hear lots of crap about the Volt. Has anyone driven one? Its an excellent car.Tight,quick,highly innovative,attractive,solid feeling... Can GM survive its legacy costs? I dunno, ahead of my pay grade. Does it have the people and ability to produce exceptionally good product? ABSOLUTELY. Is the next gen stuff as good as anything else available here? In my opinion its better.Umm world class? I live in America (proudly) Our vehicles are mostly designed to be used here. A Chinese moped is not designed for use on a Texas interstate. On this issue and in this election my hope is that we put our pre conceived notions where they belong and have an open eyed look at what is really going on now.

So far, you have posted the most well thought out response in this thread. We both agree that GM can and does make some good product. YOU tell me why the vette has not taken over the exotic world? If GM is to suceed, it must answer and overcome that question. You are the second person to say that the Vette is "Our Car". That makes it by definition "non world class". The example is the vette, but the problem is planetary. The USA is a small fish is a large pond. (Funny how that happened ) If the rest of the people on the planet do not buy our NA cars, there is no chance that the domestic market could support the industry even if we made it law to buy the things. China and India have 2.5 billion consumers. The USA has .34 billion. People in emergin markets want cars across their entire economic spectrum; from poor to rich and young to old The good news market-wise is that the great ponzi scheme that we call an economy is just starting over in those countries. Sucks to be us because NA it is in the middle of unraveling at the end of its 60 year ponzi economy. The NA automakers need to sell cars to these emerging markets and they need to do so by creating desire. I just dont see this happening. It is not hate, it is an observation.

Please, NOHOME, for the love of god, read the rebuttal Racerfink posted...its states, quite clearly, how GM is poised, VERY WELL, to succeed in the world market. From China, to Latin America, to the eastern bloc, GM has a worldwide strategy that is working.

4cylndrfury wrote:

belteshazzar wrote: simply one guy's opinion; i try to think of anything that GM does that interests me at all. nothing comes to mind. i bought a brand new car two months ago. i felt i had no reason to step foot at any one of their dealerships. sincerely, beltshazzar, married 35 year old father of two.

What did you buy?

A skyactiv Mazda 3 wagon.

Lol, I love the ignorant GM Hate this board has.

If GM is so well poised to take over the planet, why is the company stock tanking? As a taxpayer (yeah, I get to pay US and Canadian Taxes) I have to wonder how much more money should be tossed down the hole?

Anyways, my comments are more to the point of "I hope I am wrong but I see no real traction from where I am standing". I realize that I am not the world and my opinions are based on personal perception.

NOHOME wrote: If GM is so well poised to take over the planet, why is the company stock tanking? As a taxpayer (yeah, I get to pay US and Canadian Taxes) I have to wonder how much more money should be tossed down the hole?

If you consider being up about 25% in the past month to be "tanking" then you have much higher standards for stock performance than I do. http://www.google.com/finance?client=ig&q=NYSE:GM

Tom_Spangler wrote:

NOHOME wrote: If GM is so well poised to take over the planet, why is the company stock tanking? As a taxpayer (yeah, I get to pay US and Canadian Taxes) I have to wonder how much more money should be tossed down the hole?

If you consider being up about 25% in the past month to be "tanking" then you have much higher standards for stock performance than I do. http://www.google.com/finance?client=ig&q=NYSE:GM

So we the taxpayers can cash out with a break-even? Good to know.

I will be in the corner holding my breath.

NOHOME wrote:

Tom_Spangler wrote:

NOHOME wrote: If GM is so well poised to take over the planet, why is the company stock tanking? As a taxpayer (yeah, I get to pay US and Canadian Taxes) I have to wonder how much more money should be tossed down the hole?

If you consider being up about 25% in the past month to be "tanking" then you have much higher standards for stock performance than I do. http://www.google.com/finance?client=ig&q=NYSE:GM

So we the taxpayers can cash out with a break-even? Good to know. I will be in the corner holding my breath.

Not even close, but that's not what you said, now was it? You said the stock was "tanking" and I provided evidence that it's up quite a lot in the past month. Don't try to deflect.

Eh, when I look at the biggest sellers in the nation, pickups and mid-size sedans, the GM products don't really excite me.

The Ferd trucks have dominated the market forever now, but I'm excited to see what the next generation Silverado has to offer.

Meanwhile, the Malibu is a bland car in a bland market. Lots of automakers are making cars that ride nicely, get good gas mileage and are reliable. The groups that are making major moves (Hyundai, Kia, VW) are those offering something unique, either with styling or drivetrain options (VW Diesel). Now Ford and Mazda are adding cars with awesome style, and soon the Mazda6 will be available with a diesel too, double whammy.

What is GM doing to counter that? eAssist. Sure it's neat, but it's a bandaid. And the Chevy car face right now is pure vanilla. They need to add some excitement to the lineup.