I still don't see EV's Replacing ICEs.

Wally (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to Steve_Jones :

It's definitely not a 4 hour full charge. Ours was delivered on 8 percent and we left it plugged in for about 30 hours to get it up into the 90s. After that it's stayed charged up enough to live with but coming up from nothing is a long process. 

You mis read, not 4 hour charge, 4 miles per hour plugged in. Need 40 miles? 10 hours, etc. 

In reply to Steve_Jones :

I did, ours did a little better but certainly not overnight for a full charge off a 110 outlet. 

In reply to Wally (Forum Supporter) :

110 must be faster on the lake in MN :)

frenchyd said:

Wally (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to Steve_Jones :

I did, ours did a little better but certainly not overnight for a full charge off a 110 outlet. 

True. It isn't designed to do that.  It's design is a top up charge.  

It is designed to charge.  Charging is a function of power input.  Power is voltage times current.  It's that simple.

Not that I would *necessarily* recommend it, but I dailyed my Model 3 only charging on 110v for 2-3 weeks. Honestly with knowing what I know now, the real limitation in doing that is the batteries internal BMS won't be able to stay at a low state of charge to "learn" it's capacity (since you'll come home and toss it onto the charger right away) so it'll falsely report your total battery capacity as decreasing when it isn't, all due to how it averages the pack mathematically.

I thought it was doing that to me so I did an experiment once I learned how the pack averages- I spent a week where, instead of recharging the car every night I alternated, and would leave the car for long stretches at certain points so the BMS could long-term balance and "learn" it's average. I also specifically drained it down to ~30% and left it there for about 4 hours before allowing it to recharge; end result after one whole week of doing that, was I "regained" over 10 miles of total range. Now on workdays I don't charge each night so the BMS "learns" more averages 

Wally (Forum Supporter) said:

frenchyd said:

AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:

Indy - Guy said:

frenchyd said:

 

......

 

     ..... Some countries Tesla's are 70% of new car sales  but in many nations Tesla #1 new car sold.   

Name one country that Tesla is 70% of new car sales.

If you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge any question....  dodge, dip, duck, dive.....  dodge, dip, duck, dive

Norway 

No, just no. 
 

80% of new cars sold in Norway were electric. 12% of those were Teslas. 

https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/electric-vehicle-europe-norway-tesla-sales/

Wally, facts are irrelevant in this train wreck.

(come on 100!)

frenchyd said:

Steve_Jones said:

frenchyd said:

Wally (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to frenchyd :

We have a Bolt at work but haven't gotten a charger installed for it yet. Charging on 110 has been very slow, it would not be practical as someone's only car. 

  The new bolt has 200? Mile  range?   
 Average daily commute is 35 miles.   
   So for the average person who plugs in every night it will be fully charged. 
   And even if it's 50-70 miles  it will still have range left at the end of the week.  
  The 80-20 rule is what people need to learn.  Charge it to 80% and drive it to 20% 

  That's when chargers work the fastest.  
 I don't know the deal GM and ford have to allow them to use the Tesla superchargers,  ( by the way it's now Tesla Ford GM  Volvo Mercedes Rivian, Lucian, VW (?)  SAE  )  

  But instead of sitting at chargers for hours now they will  recharge in 15 minutes or so.   About the time it takes to go to the bathroom  and grab a hotdog.     

 

   

   

Try again. GM says 4 miles per hour on 110. You say fully charged overnight, GM says your 200 mile charge would take 50 hours. How long are nights in MN?

Please go back and carefully reread what I said. 
    The average American drives 35 miles per day. If you come home and plug in. It will have a full "tank". By morning.  
  If you drive 50-70 miles per day and do the same thing. You will still have charge left at the end of the week.  

I did reread it, I'll paste it here:

Chevy's bolt is one that plugs into 110 volt outlet and draws Only 20 amps.  
   With a 40 mile commute you can start charging after you  go to bed  and have a full "tank"  by morning.  

You said "after bed" and are now changing it to "come home" but let's stick with that anyway. 50-70 miles (your words) will take 12.5 to 17.5 hours according to the people that make and sell the car so if I plug it in at 6 and need 70 miles "morning" is 11:30... 

If I work 8 hours, and commute 30 mins each way, I only need 26.5 hours in a day to make it all happen. Who do I talk to to get 26 vs 24 hours in a day?

 frenchyd said:

You are the second person who has said that.   I guess I still have a lot to learn about charging. 
   Sandy Munro says to only charge to 80% unless you are leaving immediately  and you shouldn't go over 90% even then in order to have some regeneration room.  Charge it back up before it's below 20%. 

It's the BMS, not the battery. The management systems work to equalize through using resistors to bleed off charge on the cells to equalize them to hundreths of a volt each- they work by essentially wasting electricity to equalize all the cells. Tesla wanted the battery to be as efficient as possible, so they went with as few of these resistors as possible (the fan groups say there's only 4, one for each cell pack) so not only do they take a long time to balance but they also can't balance if the car's battery is still actively being used. Keep the computer from going into a deep sleep and test like that and it can't accurately plot your battery average, power density or balance- it's process that only takes ~3-4 hours but can't happen if you're trying to charge it at the same time or use power-hungry things like sentry mode. It just means you should infrequently leave it at a drained state for awhile so the computer can say "when each cell is at 3.1 volts I'm at 15% charge" or whatever, and be sure of it.

No computer ever 100% knows how much power is in a lithium battery; they only really "know" based on lots of math and practical experience, temperature, how many amps it could store new, internal resistance, and to have all that information graphed. This is partially due to the same thing that makes them so usable for EVs- their voltage remains consistent as they're discharged. Regen "Room" is literal, that percentage is to give room for the batteries to take power. 

Keeping charge around 80% is because the pressure of the stored chemical energy will literally make the battery expand- it'll separate the jelly roll that carries the electrons from the layers, which is why they degrade and eventually puff up. Charging only to 80% instead of 100 all the time increases lifespan logarithmically, it's like for every 0.1 volt UNDER the 4.2v maximum you charge a battery cell you more than double it's lifespan. If you use a battery only 40-60% of it's capacity- which Toyota does for the older NiMH Prius batteries- you'll get decades of life.

Steve_Jones said:

If I work 8 hours, and commute 30 mins each way, I only need 26.5 hours in a day to make it all happen. Who do I talk to to get 26 vs 24 hours in a day?

Do you remember the Futurama episode, where to solve global warming they pushed the Earth away from the sun ?

In reply to GIRTHQUAKE :

Don't laugh too hard at that episode.  The current administration is talking about the possibility of blocking the Sun to cool down Earth.

GIRTHQUAKE said:

 frenchyd said:

You are the second person who has said that.   I guess I still have a lot to learn about charging. 
   Sandy Munro says to only charge to 80% unless you are leaving immediately  and you shouldn't go over 90% even then in order to have some regeneration room.  Charge it back up before it's below 20%. 

It's the BMS, not the battery. The management systems work to equalize through using resistors to bleed off charge on the cells to equalize them to hundreths of a volt each- they work by essentially wasting electricity to equalize all the cells. Tesla wanted the battery to be as efficient as possible, so they went with as few of these resistors as possible (the fan groups say there's only 4, one for each cell pack) so not only do they take a long time to balance but they also can't balance if the car's battery is still actively being used. Keep the computer from going into a deep sleep and test like that and it can't accurately plot your battery average, power density or balance- it's process that only takes ~3-4 hours but can't happen if you're trying to charge it at the same time or use power-hungry things like sentry mode. It just means you should infrequently leave it at a drained state for awhile so the computer can say "when each cell is at 3.1 volts I'm at 15% charge" or whatever, and be sure of it.

No computer ever 100% knows how much power is in a lithium battery; they only really "know" based on lots of math and practical experience, temperature, how many amps it could store new, internal resistance, and to have all that information graphed. This is partially due to the same thing that makes them so usable for EVs- their voltage remains consistent as they're discharged. Regen "Room" is literal, that percentage is to give room for the batteries to take power. 

Keeping charge around 80% is because the pressure of the stored chemical energy will literally make the battery expand- it'll separate the jelly roll that carries the electrons from the layers, which is why they degrade and eventually puff up. Charging only to 80% instead of 100 all the time increases lifespan logarithmically, it's like for every 0.1 volt UNDER the 4.2v maximum you charge a battery cell you more than double it's lifespan. If you use a battery only 40-60% of it's capacity- which Toyota does for the older NiMH Prius batteries- you'll get decades of life.

Steve_Jones said:

If I work 8 hours, and commute 30 mins each way, I only need 26.5 hours in a day to make it all happen. Who do I talk to to get 26 vs 24 hours in a day?

Do you remember the Futurama episode, where to solve global warming they pushed the Earth away from the sun ?

Thanks for taking the time to explain it to me.  I really appreciate that.  
  The Tesla with a million miles only used 2 batteries and the current one still has life in it. 
I had assumed that to get that many miles  in that short of time it was in use 24/7/365    
    But apparently not ?   

racerfink said:

In reply to GIRTHQUAKE :

Don't laugh too hard at that episode.  The current administration is talking about the possibility of blocking the Sun to cool down Earth.

Is that by blocking the sun with solar panels? 

In reply to frenchyd :

Oh that Tesloop taxi service in Cali? I think that one was supercharging twice a day with an overnight rest period.

All Teslas have a 12v battery- used to be lead-acids, now small lithium iron phosphates- to run the computer systems in a "low power" state; that way if the car spends a long period without power and discharges the battery pack past a safe point, you can activate ONLY that computer which will allow it to run diagnostics and trickle-charge the main pack to test. It's an old government mandate they turned into a safety mechanism.

In reply to racerfink :

Thankfully they're also making the biggest action on climate change yet; I don't doubt they've got someone researching that tier of engineering, but we already do similar with Jet exhaust from planes (just not intentionally).

OHSCrifle said:

racerfink said:

In reply to GIRTHQUAKE :

Don't laugh too hard at that episode.  The current administration is talking about the possibility of blocking the Sun to cool down Earth.

Is that by blocking the sun with solar panels? 

No, pumping materials into the atmosphere to reflect sunlight. We actually do this already through jet engine exhaust; the ice clouds of the condensation reflects light but the CO2 exhaust also keeps stuff in, and because it's in high atmo there's no plant life to respirate it.

I can't remember where, but I DO remember there was a study ran that needed all flights across America to stop in order to check, and they got that moment after 9/11. I can't remember what they found, but now I might spend some time to find that study again which showed how crazy of an environmental change no flights made. 

In reply to frenchyd :

You can move the goalposts all you like, I used your numbers to prove you wrong, changing them now does not magically make that go away. 

As far as my specific situation, I do not have a 30 min commute, again, I was using your examples. I do not have a 220 charger at my house, I do have one at my warehouse, because as stated before, we have electric vehicles. I'm not worried about any salesperson pressuring me as I've purchased over 200 cars, and currently own over 20, so pretty sure I know how to do it. You like to assume everyone has the same situation and the Tesla is the perfect vehicle for every situation for some reason.  It's not. If it works for you, great! Go buy one. 

Recent posts got me thinking, so I did a bit of checking. EV range doesn't appear to work out the same way as we typically associate ICE range. With a typical ICE car, you take it's highway MPG rating and multiply it by the size of the gas tank. So if your car gets 30mpg highway and has a 15 gallon tank, we say it has a range of 450 miles- depending on how comfortable you are running your tank low and how close your driving is to the MPG rating. Most people in the above scenario would be fine with calling it 425 miles. 

With the vast majority of EV's, they get their best range to lower speeds, and range can drop substantially at highway speeds. Add to that the general rules of avoiding charging past 90%, and below 20%. 
 

Here is an example. 
 

According to this Car and Driver article on EV range…

The Chevy Bolt we have been talking about drops from it's rated range of 238 miles to just 180 miles of highway driving. That sounds like a substantial difference, and that is at 100% charge. Following the 90%/20% recommendations, that would drop to just 126 miles of highway driving. Though one would assume that rule would be ignored on a "long" trip. Is this accurate, or is C/D off the mark? 

In reply to Boost_Crazy :

I'm not sure; I can only give my experiences with my Model 3, which I bought used over 100,000 miles and with a range of about ~240 miles on a full charge. It seems to be dead-on regardless of how I drive, except for the times I'd drive on the interstate like a moron repeatedly doing pulls and going over 80. For the record I typically cruise at 70-75 and I do interstate for 3/4ths my work commute.

Wind resistance increases logarithmically past 35mph and the EPA rating is based on mixed use and not constant interstate/highway, so doing 75mph for hours like that in a test doesn't seem off the mark- but for our Bolt example we'd need an owner to know, and the one I know might be at work tomorrow. I know it's asking a lot, but I wonder if they redid some of the cars at 60MPH what the alteration would be.

In reply to frenchyd :

And I can buy a used Honda Fit for $7000 that will get 40mpg.

From a strictly cost standpoint an EV is not more cost effective in any way shape or form.

I get all the folks who like not having to stop at a gas station.