I still don't see EV's Replacing ICEs.

In reply to frenchyd :

They are drilling pilot holes looking for lithium.

In reply to Tom1200 :

and then strip mine it out. Makes a beautiful scenery of the natural landscape. 

Unsold electric cars are starting to pile up on dealers lots for reasons discussed here.

Prices are too high, and charging is a problem.

https://www.axios.com/2023/07/10/unsold-electric-cars-are-piling-up-on-dealer-lots

frenchyd said:

 

You drill for oil.   Lithium  is loaded onto haul trucks.  
    America has the 5th most Lithium in the world.   Tesla owns a 10,000 acre quarry, and there is even more in the Salton Sea in Southrrn California 

From what I have read / seen about the Salton Sea plants (the Salton Sea in itself is already a bit of an eco disaster), the way the Lithium is captures is by pulling some sort of sludge (resulting from geothermal activity?) out of the ground and processing the lithium out of that liquid / sludge.

So, at least in the case of the Salton Sea plants, it does seem to involve some sort of drilling.  I am sure there is more specific info on the process out there if someone wants to search for it.

This does not really cover the process:  https://chicago.suntimes.com/business/2021/8/31/22650462/lithium-fuel-salton-sea-batteries-electric-vehicles-california-energy-evs-geothermal-power

This is a picture of one I believe.  As you can see, it's related to geothermal steam:

They do it through Salination, where you pump salt water in solution into the rock/soil and pump it back out after it washes through. The hope is to swap the sodium ion for lithium, which is also why each one of us eats lithium every day, why these processes aren't as damaging as other mining, and why it's comparatively expensive to make dry lithium for batteries- you need other steps to get pure lithium carbonate.

It's also why Sodium-ion batteries, and even salt water batteries, are a thing.

In reply to GIRTHQUAKE :

Yes, they do recycle LI batteries, but it is a long, slow, dangerous process.

'Currently, globally, it's very hard to get detailed figures for what percentage of lithium-ion batteries are recycled, but the value everyone quotes is about 5%," says Dr Anderson. "In some parts of the world it's considerably less."

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-56574779

In reply to GIRTHQUAKE :

Before I forget: Boost_Crazy that article and comment from yesterday also has a serious issue I didn't realize about mileage what does your gas car mileage drop to doing 75MPH? Which car are we comparing it to? Most gas cars have worse aero than EVs and frankly, even my car with the best mileage I owned (a 2012 Subaru Legacy) would get 24-26 mpg doing 75mph for hour after hour when I drove interstate all the time for work; my other cars before my Tesla, an Rx 300 Lexus SUV (20MPG at best!) and my EVO X (LOL, LMAO) couldn't dream of it, so the "400 miles on a tank" argument has flaws.
 

They used 75mph for the real world test because that is what highway travel looks like in the real world. The numbers I chose as an example for a gas car were just an approximation of a general ICE car, since they vary a fair amount. 30MPG at 75mpg with a 15 gallon tank is right around the middle. There are cars with better and worse mileage and larger and smaller tanks, but generally, the smaller tank cars are more fuel efficient. Sure there are ICE cars with bad mileage and small tanks, but those are pretty rare. None of the cars I've owned had significantly worse mileage at 75 Vs. 65, not enough to significantly impact range. Most still beat their rated MPG at that speed. My trucks are a different story, they are more affected by the increased speed, especially when viewing the mpg drop as a percentage. Good thing they have huge tanks. 

If you saw my last post, I mentioned that every car I've owned could get over 300 miles to a tank, which is better than almost every EV. Your EVO's are one of the worst cars range wise, they had such small tanks Vs. their fuel economy. Plus their tanks (at least on the EVO 8/9) were set up in such a way that the low fuel light came on with 3-4 gallons left in the tank. Probably because they would starve for fuel easily on a low tank. My Galant VR4 has a bigger tank and can hit 300 miles. Strangely, it gets better mileage at 75 Vs. 65, which was commonly reported with that engine. I suppose the increased engine efficiently at that engine speed and load offset the increase in power required at that speed. 
 

Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) said:

Unsold electric cars are starting to pile up on dealers lots for reasons discussed here.

Prices are too high, and charging is a problem.

 

https://www.axios.com/2023/07/10/unsold-electric-cars-are-piling-up-on-dealer-lots

I'm Shocked !

See what I did there ?

In reply to Indy - Guy :

Even more of a problem if you stick your finger in the socket to see if the charge is full.

In reply to Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) :

How else are you supposed to figure that out?

In reply to bobzilla :

Put your tongue across the terminals?

In reply to racerfink :

That makes more sense. Like a 9v. If I ever get one I'll use that method.

Fisker just released their new SUV, and boy is it ugly:

In reply to Indy - Guy :

It's like their designers looked at the Juke and one said "That's the ugliest car ever" and the other one said "yet.... ugliest car yet. I think we can do this."

In reply to Tom1200 :

That's brave.   Prices for lithium   Have been dropping with big discoveries.  
  I don't know if the new strike in Australia is near or at the existing Quarry.  Supposedly it's bigger than the one in China.  
   Then the one in India,  etc.   

  oh plus the mountain of rare earth metals that Norway just discovered.   
    Turns out that if there is a market for things people will actually look for it   

racerfink said:

In reply to GIRTHQUAKE :

Yes, they do recycle LI batteries, but it is a long, slow, dangerous process.

'Currently, globally, it's very hard to get detailed figures for what percentage of lithium-ion batteries are recycled, but the value everyone quotes is about 5%," says Dr Anderson. "In some parts of the world it's considerably less."

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-56574779

If you watched 60 minutes about 6-8 months ago you will see one of the former Tesla executives started up a major recycling  plant for Lithium. 
  His problem is getting lithium to recycle.  Phones and laptops  are typically tossed in the trash rather than recycled.   And n spite of what you read on the web.  Very few  car batteries  have been replaced. 
   About 10-15 years ago I took my collection of cell phones ( 2 decent sized boxes )   All the way from my first brick  and including a fair number of  tiny phones.   To the recycle ing place n the country.  
 They wouldn't take them.  

Boost_Crazy said:

In reply to GIRTHQUAKE :

Before I forget: Boost_Crazy that article and comment from yesterday also has a serious issue I didn't realize about mileage what does your gas car mileage drop to doing 75MPH? Which car are we comparing it to? Most gas cars have worse aero than EVs and frankly, even my car with the best mileage I owned (a 2012 Subaru Legacy) would get 24-26 mpg doing 75mph for hour after hour when I drove interstate all the time for work; my other cars before my Tesla, an Rx 300 Lexus SUV (20MPG at best!) and my EVO X (LOL, LMAO) couldn't dream of it, so the "400 miles on a tank" argument has flaws.
 

They used 75mph for the real world test because that is what highway travel looks like in the real world. The numbers I chose as an example for a gas car were just an approximation of a general ICE car, since they vary a fair amount. 30MPG at 75mpg with a 15 gallon tank is right around the middle. There are cars with better and worse mileage and larger and smaller tanks, but generally, the smaller tank cars are more fuel efficient. Sure there are ICE cars with bad mileage and small tanks, but those are pretty rare. None of the cars I've owned had significantly worse mileage at 75 Vs. 65, not enough to significantly impact range. Most still beat their rated MPG at that speed. My trucks are a different story, they are more affected by the increased speed, especially when viewing the mpg drop as a percentage. Good thing they have huge tanks. 

If you saw my last post, I mentioned that every car I've owned could get over 300 miles to a tank, which is better than almost every EV. Your EVO's are one of the worst cars range wise, they had such small tanks Vs. their fuel economy. Plus their tanks (at least on the EVO 8/9) were set up in such a way that the low fuel light came on with 3-4 gallons left in the tank. Probably because they would starve for fuel easily on a low tank. My Galant VR4 has a bigger tank and can hit 300 miles. Strangely, it gets better mileage at 75 Vs. 65, which was commonly reported with that engine. I suppose the increased engine efficiently at that engine speed and load offset the increase in power required at that speed. 
 

 

 

I just got tired of giving away $50-70  every time I pulled into one of those places. 

GIRTHQUAKE said:

In reply to frenchyd :

Oh that Tesloop taxi service in Cali? I think that one was supercharging twice a day with an overnight rest period.

All Teslas have a 12v battery- used to be lead-acids, now small lithium iron phosphates- to run the computer systems in a "low power" state; that way if the car spends a long period without power and discharges the battery pack past a safe point, you can activate ONLY that computer which will allow it to run diagnostics and trickle-charge the main pack to test. It's an old government mandate they turned into a safety mechanism.

In reply to racerfink :

Thankfully they're also making the biggest action on climate change yet; I don't doubt they've got someone researching that tier of engineering, but we already do similar with Jet exhaust from planes (just not intentionally).

     It's hard to keep up with all the latest improvements at Tesla.
    I thought with the new model 3 ( the highlander ) they went to 48 volt Modules to eliminate the copper required to step up and down voltage.

Its also reduces the wiring size needed. And simplifies the circuits.   

In reply to frenchyd :

Didn't 60 Minutes once try to sell us that Audis will suddenly accelerate uncontrollably............................

In reply to frenchyd :

 You make a good case  but I believe my case is better. 
  I used to be a traveling salesman. Covered Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Iowa. Averaged 65-85,000 miles a year.   I could still do that with a Tesla.  The new model Y's  range is 340 miles.   If I needed 150-200 more miles per day it's a 15 minutes stop at a Tesla Super charger.   I'd spend the time filling out call sheets and order forms.  
         That's 149,000 miles per year!  
    Going 500 miles per day  is 9-10 hours of driving.   ( depending on where you are driving).  Add a couple of meals, and toilet breaks.  That's a full day. 
      So really range isn't an issue.
      You do understand you can recharge any time you have room in your battery? You don't have to drive to empty.   Just like a gas tank.  
         I do believe you need to  adjust your idea of an expensive car.  I too was shocked to learn the price of the average new car today is $48,000. 
   To me that's a lot of money. But that's also near what a Tesla Model Y sells for. 
     Then there is the cost of fuel.    I forget the price of recharging.   The editor has those numbers. 
  But as long as I stay under 340 miles I recharge at home.   
           Yeh! I have 220 in the garage.     
     If I stay under 88,000 miles annually I wouldn't need to pay for recharging on the road.    88,000 miles worth of gas would cost me. $12, 300  a year,   roughly speaking.   Electricity would be 1/3 of that so around $4000   That's assuming I don't have solar panels. 
     By the way you are right I don't have my Tesla yet.  But there are plenty of people who do  around me.   I just left a house where she drives the Leaf and he drives the model 3. 
 

STM317 did an excellent job explaining where your range numbers go wrong, so I'll skip that part. I'll just add that if you think you could get anywhere near 340 miles in a day charging from home, you really should stop reading press releases and take a closer look at the real world numbers. 

You cost numbers are equally off. You are comparing the Model Y with the average price of a new car. But you are choosing an entry level Y, the ones actually sold are thousands more. The average new car is not a base model, and good luck finding a base anything in 2023. Then you are comparing a small suv to the average new car price, which includes- many cars more expensive than small SUV's.  You should be comparing it to other small SUV's. The Escape and CX-5 start some 20k below the cost of the Model Y. That can buy a lot of gas. You aren't saving money on gas, you are pre paying for it at time of purchase, hoping to use it enough to break even years in the future. If the numbers work for you, great. If you want a Model Y because of the other benefits EV's provide and you are okay with the trade offs, great. But as a purely financial decision, it's not the slam dunk that you have convinced yourself that it is. 

In reply to Boost_Crazy :

This is where my Corvette becomes a responsible, adult choice. It 70 mph I can get close to 30 on flat ground from a 7.0 V8. 

frenchyd said

     It's hard to keep up with all the latest improvements at Tesla.
    I thought with the new model 3 ( the highlander ) they went to 48 volt Modules to eliminate the copper required to step up and down voltage.

Its also reduces the wiring size needed. And simplifies the circuits.   

One reason it's hard to keep up with the actual progress is people confuse press releases with unbiased facts.