81cpcamaro said:I agree with noddaz, CAM was created to attract American Muscle cars who really didn't have a good place to compete in. They were usually stuck in Prepared or Modified for simple mods where they were outclassed. Imports in comparison have had plenty of classes to compete in.
Most CAM cars were already legal for SM and SSM.
spacecadet said:Some people want to play to the defined rules of solo as it is, but CAM has shown there's a different group of people out there too and I KNOW it's there for Imports and other cars as well.
...and my point is that the "AMERICAN" part of CAM is arbitrary and not particularly relevant. I know who they were aiming at - the pro street / restomod crowd - but why yet another whole set of duplicate classes based on country of origin? Why not come up with a replacement set of classes based on the CAM formula but organized by age / drivetrain rather than the arbitrary nationality distinction?
Especially since we are all so fond of pointing out that the auto industry is really international anyway?
ProDarwin said:jharry3 said:you don't know which bracket you will end up in until all the runs are timed and the computer spits out the answer.
That sounds incredibly dumb.
No, I think he has something. Racing is about going faster than the other guy. Not about finding a loophole to take advantage of.
Remember Can Am racing? Big blocks beat small blocks , turbo'd beat big blocks.
What if there were three winners, small block, big block & Turbo'd.
Next we could break the cars into say 4 or 5 classes and you'd never know if the guy you are passing puts you first in that class or last in another.
Just Racing!
spacecadet said:81cpcamaro said:I agree with noddaz, CAM was created to attract American Muscle cars who really didn't have a good place to compete in. They were usually stuck in Prepared or Modified for simple mods where they were outclassed. Imports in comparison have had plenty of classes to compete in.
Most CAM cars were already legal for SM and SSM.
The issue I see CAM as trying to solve, at least initially, is that you had a whole segment of car guys out there with heavy ass muscle cars on poorly designed suspension layouts and a catalog worth of super cheap go fast parts under the hood. Even with the Pro Touring movement gaining steam and making all sorts of bolt on suspension solutions available, with weight and tire limitations most of these cars were never going to be competitive in that, or any, arena.
The difference with the proposed Import CAM is that most of these cars already have a playground where they're at least semi competitive on a local level, at least for the 80s-90s-ish stuff. I DO maybe see the point for, say, older Triumphs and MGs and things of that nature, but at a certain point you just have to accept the fact that not every single use case is going to have a class tailored for it and you're going to have to either buy a different car or mod your way into being competitive or live with running for fun.
Classing is fagmented enough as is and I'd much rather have a marginally competitive car in a class of ten than win trophies every time out in a class of one. Where's the fun in that?
frenchyd said:In reply to spacecadet :
My membership too has lapsed but I sent it anyway.
I'd love to hear my V12 at full song.
There was a gorgeous E-Type coupe that ran at one of the Pocono events last year. I really wish it could have lasted more than a couple runs before heading home with an over heating issue.
frenchyd said:ProDarwin said:jharry3 said:you don't know which bracket you will end up in until all the runs are timed and the computer spits out the answer.
That sounds incredibly dumb.
No, I think he has something. Racing is about going faster than the other guy. Not about finding a loophole to take advantage of.
Remember Can Am racing? Big blocks beat small blocks , turbo'd beat big blocks.
What if there were three winners, small block, big block & Turbo'd.
Next we could break the cars into say 4 or 5 classes and you'd never know if the guy you are passing puts you first in that class or last in another.
Just Racing!
I agree with the general sentiment here, simplifying classing to open things up and allow all types of different cars to compete against each other, I just don't like this particular means of accomplishing the end. The biggest rush, for me, is knowing who I'm running against, what times they're running, and how much time I need to drop to sneak ahead of them. I just can't think of a better way to do it off the top of my head right now.
I think the original intended purpose of CAM was never to have "race cars". It was meant for pro touring cars or "Goodguys" cars. There is no way to write the rules to convey this. So you end up with what we have now, purpose built racecars on 200tw tires with "interior".
I've built many high level pro touring cars that have been to SEMA and gone to some of the Goodguys shows. These cars have 15" six piston brakes, full Roadster Shop frame or subframes with C5/C6 Corvette suspension and geometry, big power LS or Coyote motors, and huge sticky tires. None of these cars are going to be fast on an autocross course. They are meant to be show cars that you can take on HotRod power tour. The rules were written to give these cars a home in SCCA.
We cut the entire floor out of some of these cars from rocker to rocker so we can weld in a complete tube or square tube chassis. That doesn't fit anywhere else in SCCA.
The CAM rules shouldn't be guidlines to build a racecar, they are trying to include as many cars as possible to let these guys drive thier "Classic American Muscle" cars.
There are more than just "Classic American Muscle" cars built to have fun on the street or on a track day. Many of these cars don't fit into the current rules competitively. Creating another class for these cars gives them a place to play and compete.
I think it's fair to say this will dilute all the current classes. There are lots of current competitive and casual members that want this class. Ever since local region started having Street Tire SM class, they have been the most popular class. Member and future members want this.
Many have brought up the arms race that SM became, but 200TW with less grip are a fuse that reduce the impact of mods for more power or suspension/geometry changes. I suspect that this will increase the benefit of LSD to maximize grip under power.
I think there could be a way for lots of different cats to compete in the same class, having different minimum weights based on tire/wheel size/width. Such as...
225 width tire = 2400 lbs min weight
245 mm = 2800
265 mm = 3200, etc
The min weights could be adjusted to maximize competition.
Also, it is really easy for anyone running purple crack to switch over to a 200TW class. They just have to buy new tires which they are already used to spending on tires.
Duke said:We're talking big heavy things with many many moving parts. How subtle is it really?
How subtle do you consider a thousandth of a second?
A bit off topic, but I saw a spicy meme relayed to the possible class (I won't share because it could be construed as political) but it referenced B/Prepared. What was A/Prepared and B/Prepared and what happened to them? I assume lack of attendance and redundancy killed them but what cars ran in them?
In reply to NickD :
I've seen photos of an old A prepared corvette that runs out west in Cali still.
Basically big motor sports cars as opposed to the big motor muscle cars of CP.
I know someone who was on the Prepared Advisory Committee when they did it. They had really low participation from what I was told. And there was desire to have some more room to play in Prepared and so XP was born.
Idk how competitive they'd be today but the original XP rules were built to let them still be relevant in that class, but some people got really nasty over it.
This is one of the issues that happens with the current rules. It's EXTREMELY hard to kill classes once they've been rolling for a while.
I still don't agree with the decision to kill STP, but CAM killed basically any chance it had of getting good participation #'s.
The Hoosier folks will not give them up, and among that crowd there are those who will stand their ground of their glory and argue till the cows come home that Stock classes were great and they predicted the tire wars. They'll totally ignore the national participation numbers that show why non R comps, what has now become 200tw tires were so popular and how the much more reasonable barrier of entry over Hoosiers helps competitors and the club.
I am fully aware any open rules class is a development battle, JUST like street mod is. But there are more and more cars being run in OUSCI and other series around 200+TW tires.
I have mentors in the SCCA who have explained to me the EXTREMELY negative attitudes and hatred that CAM experienced when it was announced and first got running.
They have encouraged me to stay stay positive and plant my flag in support of this new class. So I'm staging my letter campaign and trying to rally support to give the class a chance.
I sent my request to the SEB this morning for this "import CAM". I included an example set of rules based on the current CAM rules. I try to post it here when I get home. I think it's great. I may get tired of the Mustang at some point and throw the LS3 in a 240sx.
Sidenote, other than a couple guys who only run their car a couple times a year. Basically everyone in a slick legal class is running 200tw locally.
This is a bit off topic, but what is the difference between A7 DOT R-comp tires and full race slicks? Aren't people winning jackets in the Prepared classes with A7's?When I started autocrossing about 15 years ago, the R compound tires used in Stock and SP were significantly slower than the bias ply slicks used in P classes. Basically, the SP and SM are just Prepared classes with interiors (and silly restrictive mods optimized for cars from the 60's and 70's).
For example, the PAX between CSP and DP is only 0.001 difference for effectively the same cars.
When working with the SCCA I have learned:
1. There are Regional classes and then there are National classes. The Cam class in Southern California started to take off in the San Diego region. Local drivers wanted to run their enhanced older cars on street tires. It has taken off in part, to not wanting to change tires at events and spend money on purple crack.
The Optima Challenge was a natural progression for people to spend money, that did not make the owners the best drivers. But seat time always helps. Locally we have not only CAM, but a contingent of vintage cars that compete.
2. The Historic Class Street and Historic Class Race, are not being embraced on a National Bases, yet. One of the issues is where to draw the line, on the definition of Historic. They built the MGB from 1963 to 1980, that length of production should open the door to all cars produced up to that date. That always get the tangents of a negotiations moving when added to the conversations. My BMW E21 is a 1982, this series was started in 1977 and produced through 1983. I am tolerated on a local basis running in "HCS", so far. The next issue is 200tw tires in sizes that fit the cars with stock rims under the stock fenders. An early sprite would be great for these events, but what is going to fit on the skinny 13" rims.
Now, in "HCS" there is no limit on how wide a rim you can run on your car. Locally we have a '69 Corvar running 8" wide rims with RE-71 under the rear fenders. He is getting quick enough that it was requested that he reinstall the interior to add the weight, as well as the intent that his car was a street car. His car is running a 4 barrel Holley, not sure how that is going to be addressed when he starts beating everyone.
My answer to this has been to locate and purchase a 1967 VW bug that ran in EP in the day and run it on 8" rims, per the rules for "HCR". Not sure how this will compare, but I do not have to keep the 165 lbs of ballast that are needed to make it legal for the prepared class. As I read the rules.
3. If they did let us run in events on a divisional basis, that would be the first test. If getting the "HCS and HCR" back to events is something they want, they have to give us a run group.
4. Euro CAM, if you have the patients to work with the system it could happen. Starting next year you can update the motor of your prepared car running in the SCCA. That has only taken three years after I wrote the first letter to the SEB.
David
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