Japanspec
Japanspec Reader
9/6/22 12:17 a.m.

Hey guys. So I have an Innovate MTX-L Plus wideband in my turbo Miata currently, and I believe my sensor is on its way out. it will throw an E8 code when driving for awhile, but if I shut off and restart the car, it will start reading AFRs again. It has done this two times so far in a span of 2 weeks. I'm thinking that my sensor is starting to go out even though its only been 2k miles. The sensor is placed right at the end of the downpipe close to where it connects to the midpipe so it is far enough from the turbo. I may try a copper heat shield/sink to see if it makes a difference.

I did some reading and it looks like a lot of people have issues with these Innovate widebands. Many people also report not having issues anymore after switching to AEM. I did also find this interesting read:

https://www.nzefi.com/bosch-lsu-wide-band-airfuel-ratio-lambda-sensors-fail-often-aftermarket-performance-applications/

I'm not sure if there is a way to dial in a delay for the heating of the wideband with a Megasquirt? Should I buy a new sensor, check firmware version and update if needed and also try the heatshield with the Innovate, or should I just scrap this and go for an AEM X Series wideband? The sensors are a bit pricey for a Bosch LSU 4.9 to be changing them out so frequently, so weighing what would be a better option. I'm not opposed to giving the Innovate another chance, but I'm a bit weary.

CrustyRedXpress
CrustyRedXpress HalfDork
9/6/22 12:21 a.m.

Not familiar with whatever ECU you're using. 

Is switching back to a regular 02 sensor an option, assuming the car is already tuned?

Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter)
Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
9/6/22 6:15 a.m.

I have seen the O2 last longer on the innovate if you have the WB powered only when the engine is running. Wiring them off the fuel pump relay circuit or a dedicated relay that is ECU switched will help.

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
9/6/22 8:35 a.m.

 I do think the AEM is a better unit.  It seems to warm up faster, and it uses the built in calibration resistor instead of having to manually calibrate the sensor. 

 

I have always connected the controller directly to ignition on and habitually would turn the ignition on to let the sensor warm up before starting.  (Something you cannot do with the MTXL because it goes into warmup mode every time voltage drops below 12v, even when driving)  Have never had a sensor issue related to this, only have killed sensors from large oil or coolant consumption events.

Japanspec
Japanspec Reader
9/6/22 9:13 a.m.

Thanks guys! I do have the wideband wired in to turn on with ignition on, and its the sensor I used during tuning, etc so it hasn't exactly seen an easy life. I've just seen many reports of the MTX-L eating through sensors so not sure if I should get a new sensor and give it another chance, or if I should go straight to AEM at this point. No oil burning as far as I can tell.

I will admit, I have on multiple occassions gotten the sensor heated up before starting the engine as well.

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
9/6/22 1:33 p.m.

My cars burn oil by design, roughly one quart every 200-300mi in the worst case, and no sensor issues I could relate to that.  When the breather system causes it to burn a quart in 200 feet is when it kills a sensor.  And the local bug population.

 

I have maybe 4k on the MTX-L I swapped into the one car with no sensor issues, even though the thing goes into warmup mode every time I come to a stop with the lights and wipers on.

fidelity101
fidelity101 UberDork
9/6/22 1:45 p.m.

innovate products are trash. looks nice but sparkly trash is just trash. 

 

megasquirt is also trash so who is the real culprit here is tough. 

Japanspec
Japanspec Reader
9/6/22 4:45 p.m.

Thanks guys. I don't want to give up so quickly on the Innovate but I did more research and there are far more positive reviews for AEM than there is Innovate.

Megasquirt seems to be all that people tout for the Miata, so its what I went with. Not sure of any other plug and play options for the Miata, but I do agree that its not the best. Seeing how Link and Haltech ECUs are built and programmed makes me jealous.

bentwrench
bentwrench UltraDork
9/6/22 7:11 p.m.

Don't they all use the same Bosch sensors?

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
9/6/22 8:13 p.m.

In reply to bentwrench :

Yes.

I found that there is a certain Hyundai/Kia sensor that is not terribly expensive and has wiring only a foot or so long, which is perfect for my application.  Drilled a hole right in the chassis rail near the sensor and clipped the sensor's mounting tree right in.  Of course I've forgotten the part number.  But yes, any 4.9 sensor should work.

Japanspec
Japanspec Reader
9/6/22 9:24 p.m.

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

That sounds interesting if it works the same as the Bosch but lasts much longer. These Bosch sensors are junk and it seems like the Innovate MTX-L Plus heating cycle is different from the AEM which is a source of the issue. At least, from my research I have found that info.

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
9/6/22 9:40 p.m.

In reply to Japanspec :

After using thousands of Bosch sensors, I don't really think they are the problem.  They have been some of the best sensors I've used for the majority of my career.   I can honestly say that I've done thousands and thousands of starts from a cold engine with a Bosch sensor in the exhaust- either using an ECM Lambda Pro or a Bosch box, and zero failures from cracking.  This includes some -20F start that I did, as well as the hundreds of -20F starts that my co-workers have done.

Heck, for the last 5 years, I've barely even used instrumentation sensors, and relied on production sensors and just turning them on well before we start the car, and I've had zero failures of those.

Given how these things warm up, the odds are much higher that the Innovate system is the real problem.  

Japanspec
Japanspec Reader
9/6/22 9:46 p.m.

In reply to alfadriver :

I guess since I'm burning Bosch sensors my perspective is that they aren't great, but you're right, its more likely the way the Innovate heats them. What I've read is that the Innovate's heater circuit is extremely hard on the sensors when compared to AEM and others. I'm not sure if maybe subsequent firmware updates may have fixed this, but I'm kind of doubting it. Also doesn't seem to be any info on what has changed in a firmware update when they do release a new one.

Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter)
Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
9/6/22 10:06 p.m.

Innovate doesn't use the bosch driver chip, and tries to emulate it. Probably better sometimes than others. 

Japanspec
Japanspec Reader
9/6/22 11:12 p.m.
Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) said:

Innovate doesn't use the bosch driver chip, and tries to emulate it. Probably better sometimes than others. 

Do you know if AEM uses the Bosch driver chip?

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
9/7/22 7:10 a.m.
Japanspec said:

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

That sounds interesting if it works the same as the Bosch but lasts much longer. These Bosch sensors are junk and it seems like the Innovate MTX-L Plus heating cycle is different from the AEM which is a source of the issue. At least, from my research I have found that info.

It IS a Bosch.  Hyundai has been running a whole lot of Bosch and other German product in their cars ever since shortly after weaning themselves off of Mitsubishi componentry.

Japanspec
Japanspec Reader
9/7/22 8:12 p.m.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:
Japanspec said:

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

That sounds interesting if it works the same as the Bosch but lasts much longer. These Bosch sensors are junk and it seems like the Innovate MTX-L Plus heating cycle is different from the AEM which is a source of the issue. At least, from my research I have found that info.

It IS a Bosch.  Hyundai has been running a whole lot of Bosch and other German product in their cars ever since shortly after weaning themselves off of Mitsubishi componentry.

Ah I must have misunderstood. Interesting to hear that theirs last longer. It has got to be the factory ECU and how it handles the warm up cycle.

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
9/7/22 8:16 p.m.

In reply to Japanspec :

It is 100% the circuitry.  The LSU4.9 is used by practically everyone that is not using NTK sensors, and the sensors last well over a hundred thousand miles in all applications as long as they don't get killed by drinking coolant or oil, or physical damage.  (I am amused that Koreans are getting German components when NTK and other Japanese components are, like, right there)

I have a 180k mile Passat in the shop right now with what is left of the OE sensor.  Mice found the wiring tasty.

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
9/7/22 8:18 p.m.
Japanspec said:
 

Ah I must have misunderstood. Interesting to hear that theirs last longer. It has got to be the factory ECU and how it handles the warm up cycle.

Under the direction from Bosch, OEM's pretty much control their own warm ups.  We were working on a warm up that was actually full blast heat AND robust to water drops.  Everyone's goal is to have closed loop control coming right out of crank.

GaryC83
GaryC83 Reader
9/7/22 8:22 p.m.

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

Yup. I'd agree 100% with that. On my Escalade I've got one that now has damn near 50K on it, going through an AEM setup - which is still going quite strong. We run them (Bosch sensors) in a lot of our builds. They work, and work well. 

The issue you are having isn't caused by the sensor itself, imo, it's caused by the way Innovate is controlling the sensor.

93gsxturbo
93gsxturbo UltraDork
9/7/22 9:37 p.m.

My Innovate was hot garbage and my AEM was rock solid.  That was also 10 years ago.

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