1 month in to my C5 Corvette with the M6, and my MPGs run 20 in town mixed driving and 30+ on the freeway for longer drives. I just went from Milwaukee to Wisconsin Dells and did 31.4 mpg on the display and 30.9 MPG calculated but not ideal. Run the pump till it kicks off. Ideally you should fill up at the same pump on similar weather days to get a real feel for MPG.
Taiden wrote: How does the Ford 302 fit into this discussion? The LS1 gets awesome gas mileage. (Dad claimed to have gotten over 30 on his road trip from Texas to Maine.) But the 302 hardly seems to be able to make these claims. Old notchbacks getting 17 mpg highway? My numbers are probably off, but the question remains the same...
A couple of reasons. First, the 5.slow was already 25 year old technology when it came out as the 5.0. It's just a low-compression 302 with a roller cam and a heavy 2-piece alloy intake. Second, Ford is notorious for running pig-rich up to the late 2000's in order to save the motors, which is why tuners make such a huge difference on them. Third, the fox-chassis was saddled with pretty horrific transmissions and gears. You're looking at like a 3.08 rear (which most swap out for a 3.73 or a 4.11 for better acceleration) coupled to the ancient 4-speed AOD trans or the T-5 (wide ratio spread) which makes for really bad in-town mileage.
Now, once modified they can do great, even almost LSx territory. Modern alloy heads, non-dished pistons, headers, better intake manifolds, modern tuning, and a good Tremec will get you huge gains (plus go faster).
Javelin, I'm glad you mentioned tuning. Any 302 I touch will be getting the megasquirt treatment. It seems like most 302 guys don't get tuned. I have always believed that tuning makes or breaks (sometimes literally) a build.
I'll have to poke around and learn a bit more about my transmission options.
Would box flares make the LSx even more awesomer than it already is?
AquaHusky wrote: Would box flares make the LSx even more awesomer than it already is?
Engine stand with flares?
Awesomeness...
Joey
Will wrote: Some LS engines are much torquier than others. My V has the LS6, and that engine is all top end. Under 4k isn't that exciting, but get past 4500 and it's "cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war" time. A mildly-built LS1 will also make more torque for less money than an LS6, and make more power down low, but will run out of poop earlier. As for gearing, my V does 55 mph at 1500 rpm. My 99 Z28 is a lot better--68 mph at 1500 rpm. It's just insane how tall sixth gear is in that car.
I agree the LS6 over 4500 rpm is an animal but mine in a Z06 pulls good and hard from 1500rpm too. Maybe its a difference in gearing.
carguy123 wrote: There's one other factor to keep in mind, the BMW will maintain it's value much longer than the caddy. And when it comes time to sell you have a much bigger market than the caddy market.
I really don't see the resale argument. Resale on BMWs is not what you make it out to be. In fact, my buddy just took a bath on his 04 M3. When they are out of warranty the resale really plummets.
AquaHusky wrote: Would box flares make the LSx even more awesomer than it already is?
do plastic engine covers count? because GM seems to think so- they even put a window on the hoods of the ZR1 Corvettes to show off the plastic cover that they put on top of the supercharger on the LS9..
geoffl wrote:Will wrote: Some LS engines are much torquier than others. My V has the LS6, and that engine is all top end. Under 4k isn't that exciting, but get past 4500 and it's "cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war" time. A mildly-built LS1 will also make more torque for less money than an LS6, and make more power down low, but will run out of poop earlier. As for gearing, my V does 55 mph at 1500 rpm. My 99 Z28 is a lot better--68 mph at 1500 rpm. It's just insane how tall sixth gear is in that car.I agree the LS6 over 4500 rpm is an animal but mine in a Z06 pulls good and hard from 1500rpm too. Maybe its a difference in gearing.
Or more likely, a difference of 500 pounds.
novaderrik wrote:AquaHusky wrote: Would box flares make the LSx even more awesomer than it already is?do plastic engine covers count? because GM seems to think so- they even put a window on the hoods of the ZR1 Corvettes to show off the plastic cover that they put on top of the supercharger on the LS9..
Not plastic! That's the top of the intercooler!
tuna55 wrote:novaderrik wrote:Not plastic! That's the top of the intercooler!AquaHusky wrote: Would box flares make the LSx even more awesomer than it already is?do plastic engine covers count? because GM seems to think so- they even put a window on the hoods of the ZR1 Corvettes to show off the plastic cover that they put on top of the supercharger on the LS9..
looks like you're right. the plastic is around the part you see thru the window.
In reply to Taiden:
It seems like often the only management changes 302 people do are tweaks via the MAF, which to me doesn't seem like a really effective path, although I guess it could be an improvement. There's an MS PnP rig available from DIYAutoTune for $600 with an MS, it apparently doesn't deal with A/C compensation out of the box, I'm interested in the thing eventually but I'd want to figure out the air con situation as well.
Perhaps a TwEECer makes more sense? Would still want a wide-band O2 and a way to log... MS seems easier somehow though.
Cotton wrote:carguy123 wrote: There's one other factor to keep in mind, the BMW will maintain it's value much longer than the caddy. And when it comes time to sell you have a much bigger market than the caddy market.I really don't see the resale argument. Resale on BMWs is not what you make it out to be. In fact, my buddy just took a bath on his 04 M3. When they are out of warranty the resale really plummets.
If we assume buying one already out of warranty, that's pretty irrelevant. That particular drop will have already occurred.
keethrax wrote:Cotton wrote:If we assume buying one already out of warranty, that's pretty irrelevant. That particular drop will have already occurred.carguy123 wrote: There's one other factor to keep in mind, the BMW will maintain it's value much longer than the caddy. And when it comes time to sell you have a much bigger market than the caddy market.I really don't see the resale argument. Resale on BMWs is not what you make it out to be. In fact, my buddy just took a bath on his 04 M3. When they are out of warranty the resale really plummets.
My point was resale in general and the out of warranty comment was just an additional thought. Very few luxury cars hold their value these days. My point was more along the lines of the people commenting on resale and market share/popularity were not accurate.
Regardless...yes the LS1 is awesome and all this talk of it has made me wish I went with one in my 91 Suburban.
Cotton wrote: Regardless...yes the LS1 is awesome and all this talk of it has made me wish I went with one in my 91 Suburban.
It's had me doing the budget math on putting together a nice 5.0 for my SN95 vs. an aluminum 5.3 swap for some later date...
pres589 wrote:Cotton wrote: Regardless...yes the LS1 is awesome and all this talk of it has made me wish I went with one in my 91 Suburban.It's had me doing the budget math on putting together a nice 5.0 for my SN95 vs. an aluminum 5.3 swap for some later date...
get the front mount distributor kit from GM and put a carb intake on an LS, and it looks an awful lot like a Windsor..
In reply to Taiden:
Javelin wrote: A couple of reasons. First, the 5.slow was already 25 year old technology when it came out as the 5.0. It's just a low-compression 302 with a roller cam and a heavy 2-piece alloy intake. Second, Ford is *notorious* for running pig-rich up to the late 2000's in order to save the motors, which is why tuners make such a huge difference on them. Third, the fox-chassis was saddled with pretty horrific transmissions and gears. You're looking at like a 3.08 rear (which most swap out for a 3.73 or a 4.11 for better acceleration) coupled to the ancient 4-speed AOD trans or the T-5 (wide ratio spread) which makes for really bad in-town mileage. Now, once modified they can do great, even almost LSx territory. Modern alloy heads, non-dished pistons, headers, better intake manifolds, modern tuning, and a good Tremec will get you huge gains (plus go faster).
I've seen high 20s in my foxbody 'vert.
This is running a bone-stock engine other than a K&N panel filter, T-5, and 2.73s on pizza cutters (195/65R15s) cruising at about 75mph with the top and windows up. Car is heavier than stock, as I've added a rollbar, SFCs, and some other bracing.
I attribute it mostly to the tires. As soon as I put on my RA1s or Star Specs, mileage drops to around 20.
In reply to novaderrik:
I'm not sure why I would want to do any of that since it is already a powerful, efficient engine from the factory with its sans-dizzy ignition and FI. Which is kind of the point of this discussion thread. Plus I'd have to buy that junk when I'm talking about keeping things to budget.
I'd need a bellhousing to use my existing WC T-5, I'd need wiring work although that should be fairly straight forward really, and I'd need motor mounts created. Then smaller and smaller issues like rad hoses and the exhaust, and I'd need to do homework to make sure the thing stays 50 state legal (assuming that is even possible...). Carbs aren't cutting it.
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