"I've been working at GM dealers since 1965"

Salanis wrote: My grandparents then gave me their next cast off car, a Chrysler Cirrus. It sucked too. It was more boring than the Camry. And it liked to break the engine mounts and take other systems when those went. I think it broke 5 or six engine mounts while I had it.

That's not normal. My parents had their's for 9 years and never had to replace them.

Datsun1500 wrote:

Jensenman wrote: I guess I never see that down here because it just doesn't get all that cold. People exhale and sweat water vapor, water condenses on cold surfaces. That's an environmental condition, pretty much beyond the control of the manufacturer.

OK but can you explain why it happens in my Odyssey but not my Wife's Lexus LX? Same family, same size car. Never happened in my Caravan.....

Yes. The Honda has the vent set to recirculate the cabin air and the Lexus has it set (properly) on fresh air mode.

I'll have to say that climate control was the one shining feature of US vehicles. I remember a rental Chevy in Torronto in about Feburary. Start it up and within seconds the windshield is clearing. My Toyotas do OK. The Truck does well, the Rolla is a bit weak in heat, the Camry is great and the Lexus is like sitting in the living room. England, on the other hand, is a magic land where the temperature never varies outside of 60-80F. I've reached this conclusion by studying their automotive HVAC systems, as that's the only range that they function in.

nickel_dime wrote: A Modern Parable. A Japanese company (Toyota) and an American company (Ford Motors) decided to have a canoe race on the Missouri River Both teams practiced long and hard to reach their peak performance before the race. However, the Japanese engineers had stolen the designs from the Americans and took advantage of government support and unfair trade practices to garner a huge financial edge. On the big day, the Japanese finished slightly ahead of the Americans. The Americans, very discouraged and depressed, decided to investigate the reason for the narrow defeat. A management team made up of senior management was formed to investigate and recommend appropriate action. Unfortunately, the Japanese government was unreceptive to the formal protest by the Americans and the domestic team received no help from their government. Their conclusion was the Japanese had once again used strong armed, deceptive and nationalistic practices to win the race.. Never the less,the Americans handily won the second race. Many Japanese wanted to purchase an American canoe, but were unable to do so as they were heavily taxed and unfairly labeled as unsafe. Feeling a deeper study was in order; American management hired a consulting company and paid them a large amount of money for a second opinion. They determined that although the American canoe was superior, they were receiving unfair press and required to pay their rowers more money than the Japanese. They advised, of course, that paying their rowers more would result in a competitive disadvantage with the Japanese as they would have more money for development. To further ensure an edge, the Japanese company/government further subsidized their team by agreeing to sell their canoes to the Americans at a loss until market share could be increased. Not sure of how to utilize that information, but wanting to prevent another loss to the Japanese, the rowing team's management structure was totally reorganized. In spite of survey after survey showing performance, pricing and content equal to or better than their Japanese competition, market share continued to shrink. The next year the Japanese lost the race, but had introduced a new Hybrid canoe that managed to further increase the hype and coverage in the press. This new Hybrid also helped to disguise the new "supertanker" canoe that the Japanese also introduced that was far more damaging to the environment than any built by the Americans. Annoyed, the American management team continued to cite surveys showing their high performing, efficient canoes and local, diverse rowers all to no avail. . Sadly, the End. Here's something else to think about: Ford has spent the last thirty years moving all its factories out of the US, claiming they can't make money paying American wages. TOYOTA has spent the last thirty years building more than a dozen plants inside the US. Ford still employs far more workers than the Japanese in America and a greater percentage of the profits return to the home country. The last quarter's results: TOYOTA makes 4 billion in profits while Ford racked up 9 billion in losses. Ford folks are still scratching their heads, and collecting bonuses... while their Japanese counter parts revel in the ability to rest on laurels garnered years ago and marvel at the ignorant American consumer that ignores their(Toyota's falling quality, ugly designs and miserable trucks) flaws.-of course, collecting their bonuses as well. IF THIS WEREN'T SO TRUE IT MIGHT BE FUNNY

jimbob_racing wrote:

Datsun1500 wrote:

Jensenman wrote: I guess I never see that down here because it just doesn't get all that cold. People exhale and sweat water vapor, water condenses on cold surfaces. That's an environmental condition, pretty much beyond the control of the manufacturer.

OK but can you explain why it happens in my Odyssey but not my Wife's Lexus LX? Same family, same size car. Never happened in my Caravan.....

Yes. The Honda has the vent set to recirculate the cabin air and the Lexus has it set (properly) on fresh air mode.

Hmmm. Must have something to do with the placement of the cabin exhaust vents. You usually see these inside the rear door jambs and/or around the tailgate.

Still, there's only so much that can be done. I had a woman bring in a Rodeo that she said had water gushing in around the sunroof when it rained. Even using a garden hose pistol grip and with water aimed directly at the gap between the sunroof and the sheet metal, no leak. She got E36 M3TIN' about it, too.

Then I discovered, after further questioning, that it happened once only in a downpour while she was evacuating from a hurricane. We are talking something like 3 inches of rain per hour and winds in the 80 MPH range. I explained that no matter how hard the engineers try, they can't possibly foresee all environmental conditions and that we could not guarantee she wouldn't experience the same thing again in similar conditions. Her response? 'It should NEVER leak.'

kreb wrote: I haven't been able to bring the article up - must be those GM servers But while lord knows that the domestic car companys have berkeleyed up repeatedly, ditching them isn't in our best interests. Let me ask you - why do we feel the sense of entitlement to always have the best? Domestic vehicles are loads better than they've been at any other time in my 46 years. While it serves us individually to get the best quality within our budget, collectively every time we go overseas, it's another tiny staple in the coffin of American manufacturing. And those that think that we can get by on service industry, high tech and finance are deluding themselves IMO. I know this isn't a popular view, and I'm not trying to lay guilt trips, but actions have repricusions. Just as we threw the boatbuilding industry out with the luxury tax, in giving the big 3 the boot, we pass through a door that will not likely open again.

Amen to that - and well put. It's hard to explain to car-guys that there's more to it than just the cars.

Jensenman wrote: 'Excessive window fogging'? WTF is that? I have NEVER seen a fogged glass due to anything other than environmental issues.

I used to really enjoy fogging the windows. Not that it had anything to do with driving.

Dr. Hess wrote: I'll have to say that climate control was the one shining feature of US vehicles. I remember a rental Chevy in Torronto in about Feburary. Start it up and within seconds the windshield is clearing. My Toyotas do OK. The Truck does well, the Rolla is a bit weak in heat, the Camry is great and the Lexus is like sitting in the living room. England, on the other hand, is a magic land where the temperature never varies outside of 60-80F. I've reached this conclusion by studying their automotive HVAC systems, as that's the only range that they function in.

I have to agree. They always seem to have pretty good wipers too. In my experience, German cars always have totally kick ass heaters, but mediocre AC systems and wipers, Japanese cars are generally pretty average on those fronts, and domestics have always seemed to have really good heat, AC, and wipers. Except for my beater '96 escort. The wipers are average at best, the ac has never worked(never looked into why, it's a beater), and the heat is horrible.

Jensenman wrote: Then I discovered, after further questioning, that it happened once only in a downpour while she was evacuating from a hurricane. We are talking something like 3 inches of rain per hour and winds in the 80 MPH range. I explained that no matter how hard the engineers try, they can't possibly foresee all environmental conditions and that we could not guarantee she wouldn't experience the same thing again in similar conditions. Her response? 'It should NEVER leak.'

if i was willing to quit that day, i'd suggest that she leave it for 24 hours and "i guarantee it won't leak when you pick it up tomorrow at this time". of course, she'd be picking up a vehicle with a welded steel panel in place of her old sunroof, but i'd stand behind my work!