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ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter)
ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) Dork
7/13/23 9:43 p.m.

This has been a bit of a stir in the Spec Racer community because as far as we can all remember, nobody has ever died racing one.  That's a 40 year run in one of the busiest amateur race classes in the US without a fatality. The scuttlebutt going through the rumor mill mirrors some of the comments above; it's clear that this was not an SCCA-spec car, and who knows what mods were made to it  

- the car in question had an MR2 engine worth 30% more power than a proper SRF Gen 3. 

- there are videos floating around of guys racing there without HANS devices or other safety gear

- there was little to no runoff area before the wall in the turn where the crash occurred. 

Tom1200
Tom1200 PowerDork
7/13/23 10:11 p.m.

In reply to ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) :

Do we know that they are SRFs chassis? Toyota World Sports Racers used MR2 drivetrains. 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
7/13/23 11:22 p.m.

The track website refers to them as "Spec Racer Toyotas". Every mention I' ve seen of them from the police report calls the car a "Spec Racer" (capitalized) or a "Spec". 

This forum thread from 2011 (ha, I follow the OP on Facebook) says they're using the Ford and Renault Spec Racer chassis and being re-engined with Toyota power, and there are some pics that might help those that know the cars. I also found some mention of Renault Spec Racers being used there in the 90s.

https://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=73021.0

A more recent pic. No HANS that I can see.

Here's a heavily edited video of some of the racing and the cars last summer.

 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
7/13/23 11:32 p.m.

Another video that includes some shots of the cars without bodywork. Looks like HANS is left to the discretion of the driver, looks like about half the drivers run one. Dunno if that mattered. They have a fair fleet of cars though. I don't know where they keep them.

 

Tom1200
Tom1200 PowerDork
7/13/23 11:53 p.m.

OK those are obviously Spec Racer chassis.

Regardless of whether or not they are mandated I'm just floored that folks would race without spending kind of head and neck restraint.

The topic of running of came up in a other thread and I recall taking about not pushing the envelope in corners or on tracks without a lot of run off.

We had a fairly well publicized incident at one of those drive an exotic car places (customers and employee died) and the main chase was hairpin with no run.off at the end of a straight........they've since reconfigured the track. 

ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter)
ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) Dork
7/14/23 8:06 a.m.

Here is a picture of the corner in question:

The runoff is about as deep as the double-wide is long. Ford powered Spec Racers put down lap times similar to a GT4 at most tracks.  Race weight with driver is 1560lb.  I would expect that these Toyota powered cars would be similar to a Radical SR1 but with less grip. 

jharry3
jharry3 Dork
7/14/23 8:25 a.m.
GameboyRMH
GameboyRMH MegaDork
7/14/23 9:24 a.m.
ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) said:

This has been a bit of a stir in the Spec Racer community because as far as we can all remember, nobody has ever died racing one.  That's a 40 year run in one of the busiest amateur race classes in the US without a fatality. The scuttlebutt going through the rumor mill mirrors some of the comments above; it's clear that this was not an SCCA-spec car, and who knows what mods were made to it  

- the car in question had an MR2 engine worth 30% more power than a proper SRF Gen 3. 

- there are videos floating around of guys racing there without HANS devices or other safety gear

- there was little to no runoff area before the wall in the turn where the crash occurred. 

The track layout/unsafety, lack of safety equipment (and club rules to enforce them), and power mods were definitely major factors in this fatality, but there may also have been a bit of luck involved in nobody dying in a Spec Racer car at an SCCA event in the last 40 years...I don't think sports-racer type cars in general have a better-than-average safety record. People have died crashing relatively recent Radicals.

GameboyRMH
GameboyRMH MegaDork
7/14/23 9:32 a.m.
Tom1200 said:

Regardless of whether or not they are mandated I'm just floored that folks would race without spending kind of head and neck restraint.

Especially billionaires at a costly private club, it's not like they had to skimp on HANS to afford a replacement engine from the junkyard...if I had that kind of budget I'd be wearing F1-grade gear and maybe pay for a heli-ambulance on standby.

I once saw someone with a big budget who must've had the same thoughts put a cage with NASCAR-style door bars into a Porsche Cayman for track days laugh

Floating Doc (Forum Supporter)
Floating Doc (Forum Supporter) UltimaDork
7/14/23 9:48 a.m.

In reply to GameboyRMH :

Yeah, I don't understand the (lack of) logic in ignoring safety issues, especially when you don't have to consider the cost. 

jfryjfry
jfryjfry SuperDork
7/14/23 10:04 a.m.

In reply to Tom1200 :

I am also curious if he was wearing any hnr device

ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter)
ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) Dork
7/14/23 10:56 a.m.
GameboyRMH said: 

The track layout/unsafety, lack of safety equipment (and club rules to enforce them), and power mods were definitely major factors in this fatality, but there may also have been a bit of luck involved in nobody dying in a Spec Racer car at an SCCA event in the last 40 years...I don't think sports-racer type cars in general have a better-than-average safety record. People have died crashing relatively recent Radicals.

There is always luck involved, but as the statistical power goes up it becomes less about luck and more about real safety.  It's not really fair to lump Spec Racers in with "sports-racer type cars".  They have a different balance of build strength, power, downforce and grip, and outright speed than other sports racers that gives them some safety advantages.  Radicals are quite a bit faster, lighter weight, and much edgier to drive at the limit due to the downforce.  To be fair, Spec Racers usually race only with other Spec Racers, so there's less likelihood of high speed/mass differentials between them and the cars around them- which is usually where sports racers get into trouble in open classes.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
7/14/23 11:26 a.m.
Floating Doc (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to GameboyRMH :

Yeah, I don't understand the (lack of) logic in ignoring safety issues, especially when you don't have to consider the cost. 

I think it's because there's no outsider influence. It's a private country club track with a bunch of friends going out to chase each other around, it's not SERIOUS racing. It never sees any sanctioned events that might have different safety requirements. It's likely this is the only competition many of these drivers see - they might visit other tracks for track days, but I doubt they're doing wheel to wheel competition. So it becomes a casual thing with no oversight, and so they just keep doing what they've always done.

Those comments about the stiff brake pedal and new pads makes me wonder if they were bedded at all, meaning they could have seen a dramatic change in mu at some point. Or, given the reports that he locked the wheels and left skid marks, he just plain outbraked himself fairly heavily.

Given the tone of the press that came directly from the police report (I haven't been able to find the actual report, but the Aspen Times obviously had access), it seems this will be chalked up as a racing incident. That's the best outcome for the future of the track, but there's also nothing forcing them to take any action to prevent a recurrence. I'm not sure what that action could be, maybe moving that corner south(ish) so there's more runoff. Make it decreasing radius while you're at it, just to make it more fun. They could use some new pavement anyhow.

 

kb58
kb58 UltraDork
7/14/23 11:42 a.m.
BoulderG said:

I was at that same Lotus event! Amazing to see Emerson Fittipaldi drive, and super cool to meet him and Alain De Cadenet.

Of course, if I met kb58, that was the real highlight!

Haha, thanks, maybe we literally rubbed shoulders*. The highlight for me was handing Peter Egan a copy of my Kimini book, thanking him for all the wonderful columns he wrote. That said, he never contacted me regarding any thoughts he had on my book... maybe he was being kind.

* At the track, I couldn't help but notice Emerson's supermodel wife - looking incredibly bored.

Tom1200
Tom1200 PowerDork
7/14/23 11:50 a.m.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

In the same thread I mentioned earlier I also said "you need to look after you".

Also note I'm a fan of the Isle of Man so I also have the attitude of "we know the risks".

Hopefully the track and it's members will take heed and make some changes.

TurnerX19
TurnerX19 UberDork
7/14/23 12:30 p.m.

I have been involved with the Spec Racer since it was Sports Renault. In the last decade that has included a re-powering project that was experimented with up to about 170 HP and similar torque. After a brief top speed run at Pocono Raceway we decided the car should not race with more than the SCCA's current power, and even that is nearing the chassis crashability limits. They are great cars, but the performance envelope they were designed for has been exceeded.

codrus (Forum Supporter)
codrus (Forum Supporter) PowerDork
7/14/23 12:57 p.m.

SRFs may look similar to a Radical, but they are much slower.  (they are also much cheaper and easier to drive, so this is not a bad thing).  I mentally benchmark things with lap times around Laguna Seca (it's my local track), an SRF3 is around 1:38 and a Radical SR3 will do 1:28, 10 seconds faster.  It's mind-blowing how much difference in speed there is.  For reference, the Spec Miata lap record is something like a 1:45.

 

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