Keep abs with 9th gen civic si endurance racing build?

So we're building a newer car and wonder if the abs brain was smart enough in 2012 to deal with a cocked rear wheel etc.

 Thanks.

what do you mean by cocked? like smaller than the other side?

In general I'd say that by 2012 ABS was good enough across the board that you probably do want it on your racecar. I wouldn't remove it from a 1995 BMW for example. 2012 is almost 20 years more advanced. 

In reply to Robbie (Forum Supporter) :

Cocked like a male dogs leg;)

I vote keep the ABS, if it runs standalone.  I.e. it doesn't do EBD for traction control or fake a limited slip.

Endurance racing = lots of drivers and lots of track conditions.  ABS will absolutely save your tires and/or your race at some point. 

No direct experience with Honda offerings.  A friend running a Toyota ended up pulling theirs, but that's apples to oranges.   Try a track day with it and be ready to pull the fuse if it doesn't work out :)

I've been happy to have ABS on both an 07 Solstice and 07 Mazda3 for endurance racing, avoids tire flat spots and is nice to have in the rain, no notable issues on the Mazda which does barely lift a wheel

I'd put a switch on it. IIRC we had a problem with ABS on a 2001 Miata enduro car, the ABS spiked the brake temps. Not sure I can explain it, but we did end up with a car in the weeds with overcooked brakes after a driver accidentally turned it on. 

Tyler H (Forum Supporter) said:

I vote keep the ABS, if it runs standalone.  I.e. it doesn't do EBD for traction control or fake a limited slip.

Endurance racing = lots of drivers and lots of track conditions.  ABS will absolutely save your tires and/or your race at some point. 

I don't think they had brake based limited slip because I believe they came with proper limited slip differentials, but even if it had I doubt it would be a problem. My GTI has the brake actuated limited slip, and with track grade tires at a little more horsepower than the Civic Si it literally never engages at track speeds. There's just not enough power to cause on power wheelspin at speed.

100% on board with wanting to keep it,just seeing if anyone had any odd things happen with this particular gen.

 HPD sells an abs module for this car for racing but its around $1500 which is out of the budget.

 Also makes one wonder how much better it could be if the stardard one worked 100% of the time.(ie makes me think it doesn't)

if you don't run the  HPD ABS block, you'll need to keep your TMPS sensors connected and within the honda spec range to keep TCS/VSA and ABS out of limp mode.

the 8/9th gen ABS system can do a lot of cool stuff, but it's also going to have the chance of being a PITA. so be aware.

In reply to spacecadet (Forum Supporter) :

Thanks,TCS and VSC are 2 things I'd prefer weren't invited to the party.

 Options to turn those off permanately?

I forgot to pull the fuse on my old Neon once,  and scared the whee out of myself when it lifted the left rear on a braking zone into a corner, and turned off all the brakes.

That's an American car programmed by an American lawyer, though.  You experience might be better, being import and newer.

Try it.  If its horrifying, pull the fuse.

In reply to Streetwiseguy :

I was hoping to find out without the terrifying moment:)

kevlarcorolla said:

In reply to spacecadet (Forum Supporter) :

Thanks,TCS and VSC are 2 things I'd prefer weren't invited to the party.

 Options to turn those off permanately?

Buy the HPD ABS block.. there's a reason it exists..

Streetwiseguy said:

I forgot to pull the fuse on my old Neon once,  and scared the whee out of myself when it lifted the left rear on a braking zone into a corner, and turned off all the brakes.

That's an American car programmed by an American lawyer, though.  You experience might be better, being import and newer.

It wasn't the lawyer's fault in this case -- more the beancounters.  IIRC Neons had 2-channel ABS, with the channels hooked up diagonally.  So yes, braking in a corner you'd lift the inside rear and it would take all the brake pressure away from the outside (loaded) front corner.  Not ideal.

Any modern car will have four independent control channels (you need that to do stability control).  It may be a true 4-channel ABS, or it may tie the rears together in the style of a 3-channel arrangement (which supposedly makes the car a bit more stable even if you lose a little bit of potential brake performance).  Either one is vastly better than the 2-channel the Neon had.

Keith Tanner said:

I'd put a switch on it. IIRC we had a problem with ABS on a 2001 Miata enduro car, the ABS spiked the brake temps. Not sure I can explain it, but we did end up with a car in the weeds with overcooked brakes after a driver accidentally turned it on. 

I have heard this claim before (probably originating from the same incident), but physics would seem to argue against this being possible.

I agree that a switch is useful to have, if only for troubleshooting.  Be careful using it though, a lot of modern cars are not designed to be run without ABS and may have way too much rear bias if it's forcibly disabled.

In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :

We're doing bbk front and rear and add a bias controller for the rear.

 Bigger just for thermal control and better pad selection/quick change if needed.

In reply to spacecadet (Forum Supporter) :

There's a reason budgets exist as well.....

kevlarcorolla said:

In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :

We're doing bbk front and rear and add a bias controller for the rear.

If you're keeping ABS then I would think carefully before adding a bias controller.  Many modern ABS cars do their biasing electronically in the ABS unit rather than using traditional hydraulic bias valves, and adding an adjustable one has the potential to confuse it without improving things.

In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :

Thanks,I'm thinking ahead if we end up without ABS.

 Thanks

If you're changing all of those brake variables -- bbk and bias valve, I'd go ahead and kill the abs. 

It's probably not going to be able to deal with all that.

Are the OE brakes with good pads and fluids not up to the task?  

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codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

Keith Tanner said:

I'd put a switch on it. IIRC we had a problem with ABS on a 2001 Miata enduro car, the ABS spiked the brake temps. Not sure I can explain it, but we did end up with a car in the weeds with overcooked brakes after a driver accidentally turned it on. 

I have heard this claim before (probably originating from the same incident), but physics would seem to argue against this being possible.

I agree that a switch is useful to have, if only for troubleshooting.  Be careful using it though, a lot of modern cars are not designed to be run without ABS and may have way too much rear bias if it's forcibly disabled.

 

the 8/9th gen civic are one of the cars that doesn't work right in a performance setting if you disable the ABS.

Like I said above, the HPD ABS block exists for a reason, to have ABS without the TCS and VSA systems like the stock vehicle has.

Greg Amy has spoken on Slip Angle podcast about issues related to ABS on his 8th gen.. to run without it on the stock ABS block.. they had to pinch off the rear lines so they basically didn't function and then cut off pad material as well to give it as little rear stopping power as possible because the rear would lockup constantly.

The ABS system on the 8/9th gen civic does some AWESOME brake biasing and it's excellent right out of the box.. but try to run without it on the stock plumbing... and you're screwed..

I believe it also played a part in Kevin Boehm having a poor runoffs showing one year because he had a wheel sensor issue? (this is me trying to remember, I may be wrong on Kevin)

The only option here to eliminate the ABS and not end up with a car that wants to kill the driver.. is to re-plumb the entire system..
 

In reply to spacecadet (Forum Supporter) :

Thats the kind of info I was hoping to receive!

 Thats awesome and a big thank you my friend :)

In reply to Tyler H (Forum Supporter) :

Stock brakes with good pads and ducting will "work",set of $$ pads every 8 hr race though.

 But its not just about brakes though,bigger brakes means better thermal efficiency and less heat into the wheel bearings and outer CV.

 We have a breathed on K24/K20 combo so decent power through the cv's as well as speed to bleed off with a heavy'ish car.

Turns out HPD has now abs units in stock and unlikely to restock.

 Would anyone have a contact info for a possible race team etc that may have one to sell???

 Thanks in advance.