Ladies Class in Autoslalom

There is a heated debate going on in the SCCA Solo community about the Ladies classes. There are calls to leave it alone, to scrap it or to change it.  A couple of women just submitted a proposal to the SCCA and I have attached it below for reference but they do not speak for all women in autoslalom. I think all sides agree that there needs to be more women in autoslalom (15% at Solo Nats this year) but how would you do this and what do you think of the Ladies class? 

My first reaction is both sides of the argument...  First, of all the athletic endeavors in the world, motorsport is probably the least concerned with what you have in your blue jeans, as far as actual speed is concerned.  Second, it is a well known fact that it takes a bit of a unique woman to just walk into the room and compete head to head with men. 

Lots of the arguments against it are similar to the discussion we had about pre-running the nationals course because the map was out there.  Have a map?  Your fault if you don't use it.  Have an opportunity to have a tire warmer in another class?  Your fault if you don't use it.

At least its not called the powder puff division.

And, watch this- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgSBIM6q_qI

IDK, if I'm a woman I would probably find it insulting that SCCA has a separate class for me. Because it would sound to me like SCCA is saying that the ladies can't drive as well as the guys, so let's give them their own class to drive against other women who are slower than the guys. 

I like the idea of a "club" and "open" class tier. Make it ability/experience-based, not sex-based. 

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I just want to point this out:

How many other racing series have classes for Women?

I like the ladies classes.

It kept me from having my ass handed to me by a woman who was a much better driver than I would ever be. 

irish44j said:

IDK, if I'm a woman I would probably find it insulting that SCCA has a separate class for me.

Not if you're after a class win.  Fewer people=less competition=higher probability of a win.

Apis Mellifera said:

irish44j said:

IDK, if I'm a woman I would probably find it insulting that SCCA has a separate class for me.

Not if you're after a class win.  Fewer people=less competition=higher probability of a win.

 

Winning against no/poor competition is a hollow win, and nobody cares. And if you're picking a class with no competition just to get a few contingency bucks, that's even more lame. 

If you're after a class win, drive faster and build a better car. 

Or do whatever, that's just my take on it. 

It seems to me that Ladies classes fill a similar niche to what Novice really should be for any gender regarding a place to dip a toe and get up to speed.

There is no reason women should be any slower than men at autocross, and having a separate Ladies class may have at one point been an invitation, but I think that increasingly, women will see it as an advertisement that the sport is still socially backwards and actually drive them away.

The other thought I have, related but not actually part of Ladies classes question, is the notion of of a women-only test-and-tune/school. This happens in cycling and other places as a tool for keeping introductory/educational experiences lower-stress. Hard to do given schedules and places to run, but it's a thought.

I am not a woman, and expect to be able to find women who agree with me and those who think I'm dead wrong. It just strikes me as a holdover from a bygone era.

irish44j said:

Apis Mellifera said:

irish44j said:

IDK, if I'm a woman I would probably find it insulting that SCCA has a separate class for me.

Not if you're after a class win.  Fewer people=less competition=higher probability of a win.

 

Winning against no/poor competition is a hollow win, and nobody cares. And if you're picking a class with no competition just to get a few contingency bucks, that's even more lame. 

If you're after a class win, drive faster and build a better car. 

Or do whatever, that's just my take on it. 

I agree 100%, but not everyone thinks that way. I’ve seen class jumping just to win an annual Regional Solo 2 title. One example in my Region changed classes mid year when it was clear he couldn’t win his usual Street Prepared title and moved to Stock. He won enough points in the remaining events to narrowly snatch the title away from a fellow HS driver that was dying from cancer.  He was very proud of the engraved silver plated brandy snifter he received though.  People can be petty. 

Oh I agree, but if those peoples' lives are so dependent on getting a little trophy let em have it. It's one reason I stopped autocrossing. Too much serious going on. We battle hard in my very competitive rallycross class, but at the end of the day when I lost my 2-time regional championship to another guy by mere points last season, I was nothing but happy for him for finally catching me (and now I have to drive faster!). Everyone wants to win, but if it's a defining goal of life to win at low-level amateur motorsports, whatever....

But back to the original, I thought ladies class was dumb 20 years ago when I started autocrossing. Especially since I was getting beaten by 2 women racing in the open classes with me :)

I firmly believe that if ladies classes are dropped from Nationals, we will see less women competing. For whatever reason, they aren't as interested in racing cars as the guys are. I also don't want Nationals to be a sausage party so if it takes giving them their own classes to get more of them out, then so be it. My wife (a National Champion in BML) thinks they should just raise the minimum number of competitors per class to be eligible for a Championship from the current 3 to 7. This wouldn't affect any of the Open classes because even the smallest Open class this year had 10 drivers, but it would force some Ladies classes to either recruit more drivers or not be considered a Championship class. Sounds like a reasonable compromise.

The women I know who are serious motorsports competitors (and I don't mean professional, just who take participation seriously) do NOT want to be coddled into a girls-only class. They want to compete on an even playing field and hand some boys their butts.

Gender division in motorsports is unnecessary unlike most sports where body strength matters more.

Some guys can't handle being beat by girls and would prefer they be segregated. Yes, still in today's world.

I don't care. 

And honestly shouldn't we be asking the women what they want. 

Toyman01 said:

I don't care. 

And honestly shouldn't we be asking the women what they want. 

I totally agree, they should sort this out and they have a women only group on FB where they are doing just that. However, from what my wife tells me, the discussion between the women is far more heated than what we have here and some women have posted videos of throwing trophies in the trash.

The proposal looks like a step in the right direction, but still seems to unnecessarily complicate things by trying to give 'also ran' drivers a way to be more "competitive" at the national level. Leave the less intimidating and/or more inclusive sub-classing to the local/regional level clubs and events.

As another guy (and therefore holder of an invalid opinion), I thought the Ladies classes were stupid and backwards when I started autocrossing and my opinion hasn't changed since.  I know a couple of national champs in ladies classes and a couple of open (guys) champs.  Not to take anything away from the women involved......but the guys are faster.  If you have a jacket but would have been mid-pack at best in open, that seems sort of hollow.

loosecannon said:

Toyman01 said:

I don't care. 

And honestly shouldn't we be asking the women what they want. 

I totally agree, they should sort this out and they have a women only group on FB where they are doing just that. However, from what my wife tells me, the discussion between the women is far more heated than what we have here and some women have posted videos of throwing trophies in the trash.

That's good. I wish them all the luck in the world. And I feel sorry for any man that opens his mouth. 

loosecannon said:

There is a heated debate going on in the SCCA Solo community about the Ladies classes. There are calls to leave it alone, to scrap it or to change it.  A couple of women just submitted a proposal to the SCCA and I have attached it below for reference but they do not speak for all women in autoslalom. I think all sides agree that there needs to be more women in autoslalom (15% at Solo Nats this year) but how would you do this and what do you think of the Ladies class? 

I am kinda disappointed you dragged this into the GRM forum. 

But since it's here I'm going to post my thoughts.

I'll be very transparent of the fact that I believe this proposal is trying to solve a problem that exists on the mind of a very very small minority of solo competitors, and would hurt the overall SCCA National Solo program.

For those who don't know, SCCA National Solo has Open and Ladies classes. Not Men's and Women's classes, women are not forced to compete in Ladies class. It is an option that is available to them if the idea of competing in a class with both genders is unappealing/less appealing to them. 

SCCA National Solo has one of the highest, if not the highest, female participation levels in Motorsports.

As you said, 15% of Solo Nationals Competitors were women in 2018, and it has been at almost that same level for the past few years.

Can anyone show me another form of Motorsports that has anything close to the same female participation? 

The SCCA wants to encourage women to come out, and to be long term participants. 

They are able to enter either the Open or ladies classes, whichever suits their preferences. 

If a woman believes competing in Ladies classes is not for them, then they are welcomed to try and find what they're looking for in the open class, from day 1 or at any point in their solo participation. 

A group of Ladies in Houston banded together and are "Estrogen and Octane Racing" They travel and camp as a team for National events in Texas. They can connect and be there for each other as teammates in a way I can't, as a man. They all work in or retired from male dominated fields and I've seen them run open classes locally for competition, and switch to Ladies classes when the participation numbers are there at national events. 
 

For me this idea is DOA and I'm not a fan, I think saying ladies classes are exclusionary to the broad membership is ridiculous. Ladies classes are there to be a way to attract women who won't want to compete in a class with men. I don't care why those women choose to run ladies. I only care that they are participating in the SCCA National Solo Program. 

It is very important to me that women are given multiple ways to come out and compete in SCCA National Solo.  SCCA Solo is a inclusive program. 

I was a child when the whole "sexual revolution" happened. I remember thinking at the time, "consider girls equal? Sure." I say move into this century and scrap it.

As far as having a woman's group and an open group, I guess as long as guys have the same choice, that's a step in the right direction, but why not just get rid of the differentiation all together?

You know, the ladies should really be voting on this, not us guys.

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In reply to spacecadet :

Participation rates at the local/regional level drive participation rates at the national level...Why not focus efforts there, rather than continuing to artificially boost participation rates directly at the national level?

Driven5 said:

In reply to spacecadet :

Participation rates at the local/regional level drive participation rates at the national level...Why not focus efforts there, rather than continuing to artificially boost participation rates directly at the national level?

Regions range from 200-300 competitors at an event to under 30 so there's no perfect way for the naitonal office to tell them what is the best way to run their programs. 
So, Regions are given encouragement on how to run their regions, but every region is different. Regions are encouraged to have ladies classes in some form of either standard ladies, like solo nats or indexed classes like in Prosolo Ladies classes. 

The proposed club class is creating a gender neutral "participation" class devoid of all contingency and trophies, and while I have issues with it, and how it has no place in national solo. I believe removing ladies classes to create it is the primary issue at hand. 

In reply to spacecadet :

The ladies I have introduced to the sport have never been put off by being offered to run in a gender neutral 'novice' class in the absence of a 'ladies only' class.  Once a driver is hooked, the gender differences generally just melt away. 

So honestly, I simply don't see the claimed benefit being demonstrated...Especially not in extending it all the way up to the national level.  It seems to me that it has always been presented as more of an perceived benefit, rather than studied one. Part of what I'd like to see studied is how many women are just entering in ladies class because it's what is available, not because they wouldn't enter national open or local 'novice' class if that's all there was...And at the national level potentially even largely because one form of competitive nature is simply utilizing every possible competitive advantage available.

People fear change.  Because of that, any change will drive away some small number of current participants. That cannot be avoided any more than change should be, and as such it should not be the primary consideration over long-term health and growth of the organization...Which again, drives from the bottom up, not the top down. So what needs to be studied isn't so much how to keep and maintain current participation, but rather how to drive an even larger increase in converting potential/future participants into current participants.

I will admit that this proposal appears to be no more well studied than the current system.

Driven5 said:

In reply to spacecadet :

The ladies I have introduced to the sport have never been put off by being offered to run in a 'novice' class in the absence of a 'ladies' class.

Let me be very clear that this new proposed class is only dealing with the national solo program and my concerns are only with the National Solo Program. 

What you are referring to is a regional program. Every region should have a novice program. 

There is a major difference in the National and regional solo programs.

I am a person who goes to national events to participate and get faster in the pursuit of a national trophy. That is the point of going to national events, a higher level of competition and the pursuit of national level trophies and contingency. 

I have zero interest removing Ladies classes at a national level to create a lower tier participation class devoid of the heightened competition level and contingency. 

My question to you is this, how many SCCA National Solo events have you participated in? 

I can honestly say that I am the proud recipient of an SCCA Solo National Championship DFL...Not that it matters.

Now my question to you is this, how exactly does the fact that at least one class at the 2018 championships had only one 'Ladies' sub-class participant to automatically become a "National Champion", and another had none such that literally any woman off the street could have entered in their daily driver to become a "National Champion", support this "higher level of competition" that the SCCA National Solo program is supposed to stand for?

Driven5 said:

I can honestly say that I am the proud recipient of an SCCA Solo National Championship DFL...Not that it matters.

Now my question to you is this, how exactly does the fact that at least one class at the 2018 championships had only one 'Ladies' sub-class participant to automatically become a "National Champion", and another had none such that literally any woman off the street could have entered in their daily driver to become a "National Champion", support this "higher level of competition" that the SCCA National Solo program is supposed to stand for?

That is not correct, ladies who entered in a class of less than 3 are not considered a national champion. 

3 the minimum class size. So to answer your question, no, that is not what the national solo program stands for. 

I asked if you had ever gone to a national event because there are plenty of people who will play at a regional level who will never attend a national level event. 

I want people to come to National level events because they buy into the heightened level of competition. The experience of being at Solo Nats is fantastic even outside the competition but at the end of the day we are all there to compete and that is a crucial part of the Solo Nationals experience and of any national event experience.