learn me crate engine

I have a 12 year old boring entry level 350 GM Goodwrench in my 85 El Camino (g body). It runs smooth, has a good Turbo 350 trans and 3.73 gears (for some reason). But it's got to be making less than 250hp after 60k miles. I'm the third owner. I'm looking to swap it out for something around 400hp. I'm not going to do any racing, just looking for steetable power for fun. I'd rather not rebuild but sink the $$ into something new. Anyone have any thoughts or experience with a reliable engine builder or should I just go with Chevy performance? thinking 350 or 383. Budget is 7k or less. Will get my tranny rebuilt to handle the power upgrade. thanks for the help.

Lots of good crate options at that price point.

This months Jegs catalog has a 435hp/445tq 383 for $5980 or the SP350 385hp/405tq for $5196

I'd be more tempted by the 350HO 333hp/381tq for $3059 with plenty left over for a 5 speed TKO conversion or a well built 700R4. This should build more torque at lower speeds for better drivabilty.

Throw some vortec heads and a bigger cam in the engine you have, maybe run a hone thru the cylinders and rering it..

Or just get a complete vortec truck motor and swap in a bigger cam that takes advantage of the factory roller cam stuff..

Either path will leave about $6k of your budget for other stuff..

novaderrik wrote: Throw some vortec heads and a bigger cam in the engine you have, maybe run a hone thru the cylinders and rering it.. Or just get a complete vortec truck motor and swap in a bigger cam that takes advantage of the factory roller cam stuff.. Either path will leave about $6k of your budget for other stuff..

I support this idea. I wouldn't want to spend 7 g's and still be running an old school small block. I like small blocks but for cheap. If you're gonna dump real money LS it.

I'm all for saving money and the vortex is formidable (and cheap) but I hear they don't run well with low gears (3.73 and lower) since they were designed for low to mid rpm flow. I don't have experience with it so it could be lore from the inter webs... unless you guys know for sure.

@gearheadotaku..I like your idea about the 350HO. Looking for a nice flat torque dyne curve. Although it's only a weekend driver, moving up to an overdrive tranny is never a bad thing. I've heard TCI is a great place to get a tranny from.

Have looked into the LS swap but it would include change over to EFI to get the most out of it. I'm carbed right now. From what I've added up, a complete LS swap would get me north $15K and out one wife. Hmmm...wife vs LS, wife vs LS....:)

Crate engine usually are factory seconds that they didn't want to put into a production car. Even the no longer "production" stuff like SBCs and Mark IVs usually should be pulled apart and blueprinted. We've done that a few times, there's always work that has to be done if you want the engine to be right.

And then there's the somewhat infamous LS3 crate engine that was shipped with the timing chain a tooth or two off...

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radelky wrote: I'm all for saving money and the vortex is formidable (and cheap) but I hear they don't run well with low gears (3.73 and lower) since they were designed for low to mid rpm flow. I don't have experience with it so it could be lore from the inter webs... unless you guys know for sure. @gearheadotaku..I like your idea about the 350HO. Looking for a nice flat torque dyne curve. Although it's only a weekend driver, moving up to an overdrive tranny is never a bad thing. I've heard TCI is a great place to get a tranny from. Have looked into the LS swap but it would include change over to EFI to get the most out of it. I'm carbed right now. From what I've added up, a complete LS swap would get me north $15K and out one wife. Hmmm...wife vs LS, wife vs LS....:)

I am certain that a low mileage LS 5.3 or 6.0 swap can be done using your existing transmission (with rebuild) complete with harness, ECU and exhaust for less than $5000.

At worst freshen up your drivetrain with a newer profile cam, proper springs, gasket matching, FITech fuel injection and a 2000 stall converter for less than $2500

I stayed sbc in my 64. If I had it to do over again, i would have found a rusty and cheap 2wd ls truck, yanked the drivetrain and wiring, and stuffed it in with a set of mounts and headers for the swap.

Where are you located?

Why not just hop up the low-mileage 350 you already have? 60k miles is still pretty fresh... For crate engine money, you can get a nice set of heads, long-tube headers, full exhaust kit, dual-carbs and intake, and probably get darn close to your goals.

I think there is something to be said for replacing a carb motor with a carb motor if you're not unhappy with carb motors.
The only problem I can see with new heads/cam/headers is if the pistons are such that you can't get the compression that you want. It would certainly be a good learning exercise to hop up your current motor.

Currently have headers on it. Obviously I haven't done this before or I'd be settled about it. Hoists are easy to rent. I've looked at top end kits from Edelbrock and others. Are they pretty easy to install? Other than one friend who has built his own kit car, I'm at the mercy of mechanics ($$$). I'm in Nashvegas.

How much extra power does fuel injection add. I get the convenience of FI over carb with different weather conditions etc, plus efficiency/mileage.

If you add a new harness for an LS what are connections for the dash/speedo?

Thanks for all the input. Great food for thought

Instead of rebuilding, how about putting a blower on the 350?

If you are paying to have this stuff done that changes things. A lot. What is your situation on shop space, tools, fabrication? The top end kit can mostly be installed in a weekend, but you should expect some difficulties besides just bolting the parts on. I haven't bought one of these kits, so maybe they are pretty complete but usually there are things like throttle linkage mods and the like that will need to be addressed. I think an overdrive trans would be one of the biggest improvements you could make but it will probably require fabbing up anew crossmember, unless you want to buy one of those. Things like that aren't a big deal if you are doing it yourself, but if you are paying a shop $50-75 an hour they become a big deal.

My Monte came with 3.73s and they make the car feel quick off the line. I'd keep them and get an overdrive trans. You could should just have to move the crossmember and drill new holes for a different trans. That and a good top end kit like the Edelbrock one should wake the car up nicely. As long all you're happy with the carb I would stick with it. There are lots of bits and pieces to chase down and make work for a fairly small gain.

A top-end kit can really wake it and are easy to do in a weekend like others have said. I upgraded the anemic stock 2-barrel 350 in my '72 Elky to a torque monster with just intake, 4-barrel carb, headers, and ignition. This kind of stuff is where SBC's shine. Very easy and fun for the weekend mechanic to hop up without spending much.

radelky wrote: I'm all for saving money and the vortex is formidable (and cheap) but I hear they don't run well with low gears (3.73 and lower) since they were designed for low to mid rpm flow. I don't have experience with it so it could be lore from the inter webs... unless you guys know for sure. @gearheadotaku..I like your idea about the 350HO. Looking for a nice flat torque dyne curve. Although it's only a weekend driver, moving up to an overdrive tranny is never a bad thing. I've heard TCI is a great place to get a tranny from. Have looked into the LS swap but it would include change over to EFI to get the most out of it. I'm carbed right now. From what I've added up, a complete LS swap would get me north $15K and out one wife. Hmmm...wife vs LS, wife vs LS....:)

i can tell you from experience with vortec heads on 2 different 355 inch engines in 2 different cars that they do very much like to make power up in the rpm band... they might have been designed for and used on trucks by GM, but they are pretty damn awesome in lighter cars with deep gears and a manual trans, too.

In reply to radelky:

Engine Masters EFI vs Carb

MadScientistMatt wrote: Instead of rebuilding, how about putting a blower on the 350?

Agreed, This is what you need. and that still leaves you $4-5k left all the other supporting upgrades you will need.

I hadn't even thought of supercharging. After reading this it seems like a great way to go for the money. http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/engines-drivetrain/1510-how-to-build-a-supercharged-torque-monster-for-3900-out-of-all-new-parts/

AND add the top end kit as well. If anyone has experience does Edelbrock make the best kits?

Also taking the tranny upgrade to heart. Monster has a 700R4 kit on sale right now too: http://www.monstertransmission.com/700R4-HD-Transmission-Master-Conversion-Package-2WD_p_5055.html#.WEenGTtsvlI

will have to measure my current tail shaft to make sure but I shouldn't have to shorten the drive shaft in switching from the TH350. From what I'm reading will have to move crossmember back 2 in potentially.

as far as shop/tools/skillz go I'm your basic happy homeowner who changes his own oil/plugs/brakes etc. I don't weld, fabricate but know a guy who can connect me if need be.

@nealsmo - Thanks for the EFI vs Carb vid link. Surprising result. Strikes me as switching to EFI isn't worth it entirely, especially since this car is a non racing weekend warrior. I'm sure that's up for debate in this forum though..

The power on a dyno between carb and efi would not be a sales point to me.

The point for me, is drivability. I can never get a carb set up to be flawlessly drivable. Doesn't matter if I do it or pay the man, im never happy with it. Out of the box, low budget self tuning efi setups hit it better after the first day of driving and get better from there. Supercharger gets this opinion in all caps.

Edelbrock top end kits take the guesswork out. Theres better and cheaper, but you really need to know your E36 M3 to create the package.

Also look at trick flow and afr. I l9ve their heada, and i think that they have a whole top end kit.

But i would start with 700r4, msd atomic efi, and a Paxton.

seems to me that since you are just starting out with this whole "working on cars" thing, i would start with easy upgrades to what you have.. swapping in a complete junkyard vortec 350 with a carb intake is easy enough and gets you a really good foundation to build off going forward... you can then later upgrade to a bigger roller cam and get the heads redone with screw in studs and bigger valvesprings. an overdrive trans swap is easy enough in an 83 and newer G body: just find a trans crossmember out of a Monte SS and either a 700r4 or 200-4r trans is a bolt in deal, with the driveshaft needing to be shortened 3" or so if you run a 700r4.

you have the advantage of the internet these days... back when i was figuring this stuff out in the early 90's all we had was car magazines, some local old timers that let us make mistakes, and our equally ignorant friends to help us figure this stuff out..

I like where this is going. Make sure you leave some money in the budget for rear tires, you'll be going through a lot of them.

If you're only after 400 HP you really only need heads, cam and intake, OR a blower/turbo and a cam. People have made a lot more than 400hp pushing boost though 350s with worse heads and more wear than what you have.

Considering how cheap it is to rebuild a SBC, I can't understand not doing that. You have a great core to start from. Get some nice aluminum heads, .030 overbore, new flat tops, can, intake and carb. You're looking at $3k total in and you know what you have. That leaves $3k for a trans update. HEll, I rebuilt the C4 motor for under a grand including machine work, crank kit, pistons, cam/lifters/timing kit and swapping the intake type and distributor. Took me a nice weekend to put it all together and make it pretty.