learn me crate engine

I would strongly consider just doing top end work to what you have. It will save you so much in your budget that even if you screw something up and grenade it, you'll have enough left over for a crate engine.

First thing to determine is what pistons are in it. If its the 260-hp Goodwrench engine, chances are it has the TBI dished pistons. Nothing really wrong with them, just hard to get much more compression with off-the-shelf heads. Putting Vortecs on a dished-piston shortblock will get you in the 8.5:1 range (probably what you have now). That swap alone is probably worth 25 hp. The real benefit of Vortec heads (aside from being the best-flowing production head Chevy every did for the SBC) is their efficient chambers. 9.5:1 and 87 octane is easy with Vortecs. If your shortblock has the flat-top pistons (may have valve reliefs), that will get you in the 9.5:1 range. Then you just stab in a cam and call it good.

If you're looking for Vortec heads, you can take your chances with junkyard units, but they do tend to get cracks. They're not as bad as everyone says, but its more common. Casting numbers are 906 or 062 and ONLY found on 350s. 305 Vortec heads are not the same ports or chambers and don't give you the benefits. Better yet, get a brand new pair from Summit for $500.

Check the intake casting. Many of those crate motors came with the ZZ4 intake by default. They are really quite a nice piece. They flow as well as a Performer RPM without the taller profile. Casting number ends with 063. Keep it. If you don't like it, please send it to me. I use them for marine builds to get the better flow without having to design a whole new engine cover.

What I'm suggesting is basically to buy the cam and heads that GM put on the 390 hp crate and call it a day.

... if you have the flat-top pistons.

Man you peeps on this forum are pretty amazing. In a matter of hours you guys have given me about 500 great ideas. My engine block# is 10066036.. below is info I've found on the inter webs about it, if it prompts any other thoughts. Most sites state it's a stout diehard engine. I'm glad to hear that.

@curtis73 - does this answer your questions about this pistons? Looks like stock compression is 8.5:1.
thanks so much for the tip on the intake casting. I'll pull the carb and have a look. From the info below it looks like an intake didn't come with the engine. My current carb on it is an Edelbrock 600 cfm.

@ dusterbd13 if I switch to fuel injection I guess I'll have to move up to a 4L60E transmission or is there a place for the 700R4 TV cable on the atomic?

Rebuilding seems the best way to go according to you guys and would be a great way to get my learning on. All the advice is much appreciated.

249 HP @ 5,000 RPM 304 Ft/Lbs @ 3,500 RPM 10067353 Brand New Goodwrench 350 Engine 1971-1985 Car and light Truck Replacement Engine. Engine consists of the following parts: Block -part # 10066034, casting # 10066036 2 piece rear main seal 4 bolt main Crankshaft- # 3932444 Nodular Iron 1985 and older flywheel bolt pattern.

Powdered Metal Connecting rods- # 10108688 Cast Aluminum Pistons-#12514101 G.M. High Volume Pump Oil Pump- part # 12555284 Hydralic Flat tappet Camshaft- #14088839 Intake Lift-.383" Exhaust Lift-.401" Intake Duration @ .050"- 194 Exhaust Duration @.050"- 202 Lobe Seperation-112 This cam Has a mechanical Fuel Pump Lobe. This is a low end Torque oriented camshaft.

Cylinder Heads- part # 14034808, casting #33417369, 1.94" Intake valve, 1.50" Exhaust Valve, 76cc Combustion Chamber, 7 Bolt style Exhaust Flange Standard, 85' and prior intake manifold bolt pattern. Perimeter bolt style Valve Covers. This head is very similar to the old #882 castings from the 1970's

This engine remains our most popular largest selling crate engine of all times. This is a great entry level replacement engine for older cars and trucks, and a great basic street rod engine. All of the parts in this engine are Brand New. 350 Cubic inches 4.00" Bore, 3.47" stroke 8.5:1 compression ratio. 250 HP @4300 rpm 350 ft. lbs of torque @ 3600 rpm ( These Numbers obtained with a Quadrajet Carb,1 5/8" headers , and an Edelbrock Performer intake part # 2101)

Engine Name: 350 LM1 Horsepower: 249 HP @ 5,000 RPM Torque: 304 Ft/Lbs @ 3,500 RPM Compression Ratio: 8.50 to 1 Block: 4 – Bolt, 2 Piece Rear Seal, 4.000” Bore Crankshaft: Cast Nodular 3.480” Stroke Heads: Cast Iron, 76cc Valves: 1.940” / 1.500” Camshaft lift: 0.390” / 0.410” Hydraulic Duration @ 0.050”: 195° / 202° Intake: Not Included

oh one thing - if I move up to fuel injection at some point do I need to change out my fuel tank are can I drop a new pump into it easily? thanks

There will be an adapter for the tv cable on the atomic. Msd can hook you up.

Many options for keeping the stock tank with efi. I have personally done the surge tank in my elky with tbi, and the tanks ink pa4 on the mpfi on my duster.

G body should have a factory efi tank available if you want to go that route. My junk didnt.

4l*e trans will require a standalone computer. Again, many options. I personally think that if i went that way, id go flappy paddles and blow the budget straight to hell.

Dusterbd13 wrote: There will be an adapter for the tv cable on the atomic. Msd can hook you up. Many options for keeping the stock tank with efi. I have personally done the surge tank in my elky with tbi, and the tanks ink pa4 on the mpfi on my duster. G body should have a factory efi tank available if you want to go that route. My junk didnt. 4l*e trans will require a standalone computer. Again, many options. I personally think that if i went that way, id go flappy paddles and blow the budget straight to hell.

thanks man! I'll check this all out with MSD.

Here's what I would love to do in that situation.

Rebuild myself, with a good local machine shop, to hop up what I had.

Drive that for about a year. Then post the motor for sale while I still had it in the car, so I can get a good price for it.

Then take the money I got from selling it, plus some of the money I still had out of my $7k budget, and get a somewhat better used engine as a basis for my second, even better budget rebuild, now that I know what I'm doing and what I really want/don't want.

At least around here, there are always beautiful half-done rebuilds around for far less than the sum of the part cost. It's sad to say, but there are just a ton of people that get into a rebuild they don't really have the commitment to finish off.

Plus the whole project adds up to like, two years of fun for a couple grand? Priceless.

radelky wrote: Powdered Metal Connecting rods- # 10108688 Cast Aluminum Pistons-#12514101 G.M. High Volume Pump Oil Pump- part # 12555284 Hydralic Flat tappet Camshaft- #14088839 Intake Lift-.383" Exhaust Lift-.401" Intake Duration @ .050"- 194 Exhaust Duration @.050"- 202 Lobe Seperation-112 This cam Has a mechanical Fuel Pump Lobe. This is a low end Torque oriented camshaft. Cylinder Heads- part # 14034808, casting #33417369, 1.94" Intake valve, 1.50" Exhaust Valve, 76cc Combustion Chamber, 7 Bolt style Exhaust Flange Standard, 85' and prior intake manifold bolt pattern. Perimeter bolt style Valve Covers. This head is very similar to the old #882 castings from the 1970's This engine remains our most popular largest selling crate engine of all times. This is a great entry level replacement engine for older cars and trucks, and a great basic street rod engine. All of the parts in this engine are Brand New. 350 Cubic inches 4.00" Bore, 3.47" stroke 8.5:1 compression ratio. 250 HP @4300 rpm 350 ft. lbs of torque @ 3600 rpm ( These Numbers obtained with a Quadrajet Carb,1 5/8" headers , and an Edelbrock Performer intake part # 2101) Engine Name: 350 LM1 Horsepower: 249 HP @ 5,000 RPM Torque: 304 Ft/Lbs @ 3,500 RPM Compression Ratio: 8.50 to 1 Block: 4 – Bolt, 2 Piece Rear Seal, 4.000” Bore Crankshaft: Cast Nodular 3.480” Stroke Heads: Cast Iron, 76cc Valves: 1.940” / 1.500” Camshaft lift: 0.390” / 0.410” Hydraulic Duration @ 0.050”: 195° / 202° Intake: Not Included

The 369 heads are standard smogger heads. The 76cc is what is giving you the 8.5:1 because the dish on those pistons is very mild. Vortec heads have 64cc chambers which will give you 9.5:1 range. If you wish, you could use thinner head gaskets to bump that compression up a wee bit more, but expect to step to premium fuel unless you are good with tuning a timing curve. (I can help you with that, too). With a thinner head gasket I would also suggest checking valve clearance but that is easy.

Pair that with a cam in the 215/225 range with a 110 or 112 LSA and that should be a recipe for an easy 350hp.

To get 400, you can go two ways. Step up to fast burn heads, 10:1, and 92 octane and go with a cam in the 220/230 range, or spend some money on porting Vortecs.

But that Goodwrench engine trips all the right boxes. The only thing that might make me consider a crate (or later engine) is the roller lifters found on later SBCs. In all honesty, I would personally buy myself a used longblock (mostly so I can test compression which you can't do with a shortblock) from a post-88 car or post 92 ish truck to get the roller and a 1-piece rear main. Sell the heads for $100, the intake for $50, and any other parts and it might end up being a free shortblock.

The main advantage to doing it this way is that you can build one and swap instead of having an engineless car for a few weeks.

So, buy a crate (expensive, but warranty), build what you have, or get a good used engine to hop up.

radelky wrote: Have looked into the LS swap but it would include change over to EFI to get the most out of it. I'm carbed right now. From what I've added up, a complete LS swap would get me north $15K and out one wife. Hmmm...wife vs LS, wife vs LS....:)

No not really, get a carb intake, and slap a carb on. "But then it wont have spark, I want to whine....." NO you look HERE!!!

or you can just get the setup all together.

Thinkkker wrote:

radelky wrote: Have looked into the LS swap but it would include change over to EFI to get the most out of it. I'm carbed right now. From what I've added up, a complete LS swap would get me north $15K and out one wife. Hmmm...wife vs LS, wife vs LS....:)

No not really, get a carb intake, and slap a carb on. "But then it wont have spark, I want to whine....." NO you look HERE!!! or you can just get the setup all together.

Or, even easier pick up a trashed 99-06 truck 5.3/4L65E. pull all you need, sell for scrap. You can get rusty ones around here in the $2500 range, get $500 for hte shell/extra pieces to pay for the swap headers and mounts.

Dusterbd13 wrote: 4l*e trans will require a standalone computer. Again, many options. I personally think that if i went that way, id go flappy paddles and blow the budget straight to hell.

From what I've read a standalone flappy paddle controller for a 4LXXE could be built pretty cheap if you're at all handy with electronics, the shift solenoids and I think lockup are straight switched 12V, line pressure is pretty strightforward PWM. An Arduino could do it no problem, or build it with 7400 logic chips if you want to go old school.

Please, educate us....

I have a 64 elky that could use flappy paddles. For reasons.

In reply to Dusterbd13:

If you want to take a serious crack at it, one of those ebay ~$50 Chinese knockoff Arduino UNO prototyping "starter" kits would probably be a good start, play around with it (knowing some C++ already is a plus, but not required) there are tons of write ups for getting a beginner to control lights and whatnot, basic interaction with the I/O pins. Simulate your 5 solenoids with LEDs, control line pressure from MAP readings and/or TPS (simulate with pots), probably a good idea to monitor engine RPM for anti money shift code. Once you're there it's more or less just a matter of buying/building some sufficiently big transistor solenoid driver circuits (very simple) and putting it in the car. My info on controlling the transmissions comes from here, the 4L8XE is a little simpler (there is a youtube video floating around of somebody running one well enough with a pair of light swtiches zip tied to his dash) than the 4L6XE, the transverse variants should be the same. Making it run in automatic mode smoothly is the real challenge, ignore that and it shouldn't be too difficult.

http://www.msgpio.com/manuals/mshift/4L80E/4L80e.html

http://www.msgpio.com/manuals/mshift/wiring.html

Maybe its because I'm experienced with tuning, but a well-tuned carb and ignition curve really aren't much of a downside for me. Every once in a while I get a cantankerous setup that I just can't quite dial in, but its rare. Simplicity > complexity sometimes.

@curtis73 This is really great info! Thanks for your time and input in this.

If I go with changing heads and the cam, any advice on whether removing the engine or just leaving it and taking out the radiator/nose etc is easier?

Also if I stay carbed for a while will the current 600cfm limit the HP gain much?

I'd keep the 600 cfm for now. So many times people over size carbs to get more power, then don't realize that they've maybe given up more torque than they gained.

The 600 will probably do better on the street, and might hold you back 10 ponies between 5500-6000 RPMs, but you'll probably not notice it.

Regarding taking the engine out; I have done both. The G-body isn't very friendly on the radiator and grille removal, but neither is yanking the engine. I personally would do it in the car, unless I needed to do something else like header gaskets or rear main.

thanks for all the input peeps! will see how this goes early this year. I'll probably have some questions as I get into the project.