Learn Me E36 M3

No, not, uh... that kind of, uh... E36 M3.

I've always liked them, and my Dad just informed me that he's purchased one. I, being the loving son I am, immediately offered to take it off his hands. I've always liked these cars, but never really messed with one.

It's coming from Rennie, a longtime friend of GRM. No pictures yet, but it's a white 1998 E36 M3 Coupe with the reddish-brown leather interior. Dinan stage 3 engine and suspension package–whatever that means–along with Konis, camber plates, and a full set of brand new aluminum front brake duct crap in the trunk. It supposedly runs and drives great, but has never been waxed and has a ripped driver's seat.

$5k, and I think I'm going to pick it up on Saturday.

Thoughts?

great cars.. as you already know. I think you will have fun as a good son should when given keys to such a car

Google: "e36 subframe failure"

ShadowSix wrote: Google: "e36 subframe failure"

That does not apply to the M3. The subframe pick-up points are reinforced from the factory.

What does fail sometimes are the RTAB pockets.

I think your dad got a good deal, more so because it comes from someone that knows these cars.

In reply to Tom Suddard:

As the proud owner( since new) of a 1997 M3, I can say it is a car that never stops satisfying. Sure a new Camry has more horsepower and torque than a stock M3, but who ever leaves them stock. In terms of handling, few cars have the track manners of this car. You are surrounded by expertise, but some personal lessons learned: Change the water pump to aftermarket with metal impeller - the plastic ones give out every 70K miles

Change the radiator to aftermarket aluminum. The plastic inlets fatigue and crack, and, assuming you plan to spank the thing, cooling the beast needs to be attended to.

How many miles on engine? At 130K I had a bad compression ring on one cylinder that ultimately led to the purchase of a new bottom block from BMW ($7,000). This of course led to the aformentioned rebuilding /installation of another $10k in go faster bits. Its a car that will make you want to do that.

The inline 6 in this car is one of the most beautiful engines ever.

My current daily driver is a big ass BMW 550I with a 400hp /450ft lb twin turbo that goes like stink. But when the weekend rolls around, I grab the kes to the M3 - it is the most satisfying car I have ever owned.

In reply to Slippery: If you track the car subframe reinforcement is still advised. Not complicated and plenty of kits available. The other issue can be oil starvation in hard right hand turns. I welded in baffles in the oil pan and have had no problems

Motor mount issue?

"Around and around the motoring track The M3 was really revvin' Shifted to second when I wanted fourth Pop goes the engine!"

I'm totally not just trying to get the value down until I have the scratch to pick up my own M3 before the depreciation curve swings the other way. Really.

So.. if it comes down to it:

This:

or this:

In reply to Tom Suddard:

MB - recirculating ball steering -whaaaaat? M3 -approximately 1 bajillion aftermarket parts available -and now they are relatively cheap.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zvy2QI6puE

Mercedes because cooler.

In reply to Knurled:

I like the fuel cap cover popping open.

In reply to Knurled:

Now you have me searching for M3s I could afford with the money from selling the Mini.

I had one for a year and a half or so. Lovely engine, great suspension, though a bit floaty in stock form. Two things I didn't like: the cramped (I'm a fat guy), cheap interior, and the bland styling. But as far as driving it, it was great. Refresh the cooling system, safety wire the oil pump nut, and have fun!

Immediately replace the entire cooling system. Radiator, hoses, tstat, tstat housing and water pump. Carefully check all the suspension bushings.

Dinan stage 3 engine should mean it's supercharged. They had two kinds, the Vortec (good) the powerdyne (bad). Neither were intercooled, although you can add the aftercooler that RMS sells (if you're stupid enough to order from those thieves) to the Vortec kit.

I'd remove the powerdyne kit, it's fragile and crappy. You're better off without it.

Tom, if you want a BMW, you could take this one off my FIL's hands within the year. The drive won't be so nice, though. (I know nothing about BMWs)

Tom Suddard wrote: So.. if it comes down to it: This: or this:

First--that is an awesome license plate on the Merc.

Second, while the Merc will have the higher build quality, the E36 will be the better car in probably every possible way other than long drive comfort.

But that Mercedes just oozes cool.

Cooling system. (easy)
EVAP system (a bit more of a PITA)
SRS system (the passenger seat belt sensor likes to fail)
Make sure the engine and trans mounts a in good condition (google: M3 money-shift)

Certain things will make you say, "what the berk did I ever see in my E30???" and other things will make you say, "I miss my E30..."

My ex-g/f owned a '97 when we first started dating and I did a lot of work on it. Nice car. Fastest thing I'd ever (or have ever) driven. Almost boring on the street because it's so capable (pushing the limits will get you DEEP into lose-your-license territory). She sold it after buying her '03 MCS and realized she had to force herself to drive the M3 once in awhile. Not buying it was probably the dumbest/smartest thing I've ever done. It was in awesome condition. She kept it immaculate and never drove it in snow/salt (she had a winter beater and was/is deathly afraid of RWD in the snow). Still...

My nick-name for it was the "Christmas Tree" since it was Boston Green and the various fault lights were always coming on (she could reset a CEL with her Peake tool in seconds flat). Buy a Peake CEL/SRS tool. You'll need it.

The EVAP codes were so common, I remember one time when she got a code for the cam position sensor and we were actually excited it was a part we could order and fix the light. Then we realized that was kinda effed up and she started having dreams of that Volvo 1800ES she'd always wanted...

I occasionally have delusional thoughts about getting another M3... especially since they're so cheap now... and I already have experience ripping them apart and putting them back together (although now more with MINIs). Then sanity returns.

Damn.

Merc because different. The e36 M3 is lovely but a very known quantity in these parts. There was a recent feature on them in the mag, and they are oft-discussed here.

mtn wrote: Second, while the Merc will have the higher build quality, the E36 will be the better car in probably every possible way other than long drive comfort.

If it's from the biodegradable wiring era, the E36 is also likely to have a lot fewer gremlins than a Merc. It appears the German government required a certain amount of biodegradable material on cars; BMW seems to have met that with their interior parts and Mercedes with their wiring insulation.

(I'm not quite up enough on Mercedeses to know what year the one in the picture is from, although it sure looks cool. If they're referring to the diesel boat, it's likely to be more reliable than one from the mid '90s...)

I'm a couple months in, after coming off a 328is and a couple 5ers before that.

All the usual old BMW bugaboos apply. Anything made of rubber will need replacement. Entire cooling systems are a maintenance item. Door cards and headliners are what you'd expect in domestic products made in the late 80's.

I like working on them. You need to remove stuff to get at whatever you want replace, but it's pretty logically organized and high enough quality that you're not constantly breaking parts while removing them. Second time through, you can have the initial round of excess stuff out in five minutes.

Mine is using a quart every 1K, in spite of a fresh oil separator, zero leaks, 3% leakdown across the board, a head that was pressure tested by the PO when he did the HG and no smoke ever. No bloody clue where it's going and it seems weird at just 155K on a BMW bottom end. Any other car would be for sale right now...but I'm just going to plan to swap it out in a year or so.

berkeley me, it is wonderful. Only mods are poly RTA/FCA bushings, upgraded springs/shocks, Pilot Super Sports. Street handling leaves nothing to be desired. 7/10ths from the driver's seat makes passengers poop themselves. For a car with power to weight on par with a new V6 Camry, the way it builds speed on an entrance ramp is crazy.

With the gearing, torque and throttle response, everything happens right-bloody-now. It will make you appear to be a psychopath. Traffic disappears behind you when you poke the gas. Got my first speeding ticket in 10 years on saturday night. I was on an emergency run to the drug store for some tylenol for my kid. Officer said he paced me going 50 in a 35. I wasn't, but I did cop to perhaps leaving the stoplight fast enough to make estimating my speed visually difficult. He wrote me up for 5 over. Oh well.

It's also the only car I've had that gets at least one or two people a week stopping to chat. Invisible to the general public, but it'll always be cool for car guys.

Flatspot wrote: In reply to Slippery: If you track the car subframe reinforcement is still advised. Not complicated and plenty of kits available. The other issue can be oil starvation in hard right hand turns. I welded in baffles in the oil pan and have had no problems

What?? No. The M3s came stock with the subframe reinforcement, no additional bracing to the subframe is available or needed.

There are other reinforcements you "can" do if you feel so obliged: Sway Bar reinforcement tabs Camber Plate reinforcements RTAB reinforcements Front engine mount reinforcement

If you are replacing the RTABS, spend the $25 and get the RTAB reinforcements in. The Sway bar/camber plate/front engine mount I would only worry about with massive sway bars/huge grip/aero.

I tracked a 98 M3 for 3/4 years, won a National NASA championship, multiple regional championships in CDC/NASA etc, and never had any of those reinforcements above. After tracking the car for 4 years now, I finally had to do the RTAB reinforcements I neglected to do.

I have also owned 4 other M3s. Short list to replace: cooling system bushings/balljoints safety wire oil pump nut disconnect SRS airbag ECU and do not ground brown wire (no faults/no light after that)

BTW- replacement engines are $1500, and last very long. My track car was bought with 148k miles, was track only, and finally blew a headhasket at 158k miles. (10k pure track miles over 4 years). My vert was 132k miles, no issues, street coupe has 112k miles currently, and my sedan had 161k miles before I pulled it for an LS1 (ran perfect..but wanted to try the swap)

If you go dealer, prepare to bend over. If you go aftermarket, its almost cheaper to maintain than a camry/honda. This ONLY applies to E36s, maybe e30s. E46s are EXPENSIVE.

MadScientistMatt wrote:

mtn wrote: Second, while the Merc will have the higher build quality, the E36 will be the better car in probably every possible way other than long drive comfort.

If it's from the biodegradable wiring era, the E36 is also likely to have a lot fewer gremlins than a Merc. It appears the German government required a certain amount of biodegradable material on cars; BMW seems to have met that with their interior parts and Mercedes with their wiring insulation. (I'm not quite up enough on Mercedeses to know what year the one in the picture is from, although it sure looks cool. If they're referring to the diesel boat, it's likely to be more reliable than one from the mid '90s...)

Nope W126. The last great Merc IMHO.

D_Eclipse9916 wrote:

Flatspot wrote: In reply to Slippery: If you track the car subframe reinforcement is still advised. Not complicated and plenty of kits available. The other issue can be oil starvation in hard right hand turns. I welded in baffles in the oil pan and have had no problems

What?? No. The M3s came stock with the subframe reinforcement, no additional bracing to the subframe is available or needed.

Thank you. I went into lurk mode after I saw that post ... I guess Flatspot was sold a reinforcement for the reinforcement. A '98 M3 should not need the subframe points reinforced. Maybe the bungs tacked in place if they loosened, but thats it.

In reply to Slippery:

Or he bought a "M3" thats chassis wasn't an M3....