Learn me: early-mid 2000’s tow rigs

I currently have an 05 f350 diesel 4x4 extra cab long bed.  I actually really like it and it has never given me problems.  

But as my family is growing I will need something that can seat 5-6 adults.  So I’m starting a casual search for something that can also tow well and has an 8’ bed.  I’m not opposed to a flatbed with sides but I figure the easy button will be a crew cab long bed pickup. 

Currently I just pull a single car open trailer and car but we might get a travel trailer.  I’d prefer 4x4 and diesel is fine.  Being in California we now have to smog diesels after 97 (I think) but currently it’s just a visual.  

Im comfortable with a bulletproofed 6.0 but know nothing about later powerstrokes, or about dodge  or gm offerings. 

I want reliability first, followed by towing and then comfort.  

My budget of around $15k seems to dictate early-mid 2000’s but I can push it for the right one  

What to look for and what to avoid??

i think you would be fine with any of the big three; I’m a Dodge guy but the Ford seems to have the most room in their four door trucks.

I just did the same thing for the same reasons, I went with a 3500 diesel Van instead of a crew cab. From my experience, regardless of the manufacturer, when buying used it relies on the vehicles life up until you see it. If you can find the most well taken care-of meticulously maintained truck or van that meets your needs then that's the one to get - doesn't matter so much about the make.

Personally, even though I own cars/truck from all 3 N/A mfg's, I am just comfortable with a certain make - some people are like that, there is no rhyme or reason to it. From that perspective, i kept a good look for about a year to find the right tow vehicle before i bought mine. Typically more HD vehicles are commercially owned and maintained and there will be a bigger selection in that sector than the same vehicle that is privately owned. i bought an Ex-Government service vehicle and saved a decent amount of money.

Good luck in your search!

Bulletproofed 6.0L is a good bet, but like any "problem" vehicle, you should verify that it was really done, and done by a pro.  I've seen some "backyard Cletus" rebuilds and they are kinda scary.

In that price range, I wouldn't hesitate to get a bulletproofed 6.0L, but my go-to would be an LLY/LBZ Duramax.  Those were after the LB7 injector problems, they had a VVT Garrett, and they are before the LMM with the fuel-sucking DPF.  The Allison is truly a lovely transmission.  In my 7 years running 13 transmission repair shops, I never saw one on my bench.  The same can't be said about the Dodge or Ford offerings.  Dodge automatics behind the diesels are all modestly beefed-up gas versions, and by far the most expensive to rebuild of the three.  Ford did pretty well with the 5R110, but it doesn't live up to its Allison cousin.

Each has their own tastes, but I really don't like Dodge.  I've owned a couple and I hated the ergonomics, the plastic dash with visible casting lines, the buzzes and rattles, and the painfully stiff ride.  I also don't understand why even the 2wd versions need a small step ladder to get in and out of the bed.  They leave almost 3' of clearance between the wheel and the top of the well.  Dodge also carries the "cummins tax" which adds a phantom $3000 to the price tag "because cummins."

For me, hands down, I'd be looking at LLY/LBZ Dmax.  Mostly bulletproof, the trucks have nice ergonomics (get cloth seats, the leather is very low quality), and they're (in my opinion) the nicest truck to drive of the three.  I look forward to driving dad's two Dmax trucks, but the Dodge I had was a chore.  I looked for any possible excuse to not drive it.  I've also owned several 7.3L strokes and loved driving them, but they're all a bit long in the tooth and pale in comparison to the newer diesels in your price range.

My best friend has a bulletproofed 2006 F250 6.0 crew cab.  The cab is huge, the engine sounds amazing and pulls hard.  The truck overall is quite loud and stiff.  My 2004 crew cab LLY Duramax is "softer", has enough cab space for 6 adults, pulls just as hard, and is quieter and more pleasant to spend time in.  And the Allison trans is awesome.  The programmers got it nailed down.  It spends way more time with the converter locked than the Ford does, which seems like a good thing to me.

As Curtis said, the cloth is better than the leather in the GM trucks, and also gives you the front bench with fold up center console.  The leather seat versions have the permanent center console with front buckets.

Another friend has an '06 Dodge Cummins 3500.  Great motor, poor trans (he's had it rebuilt a couple times and really doesn't pull anything that heavy that often), and the ride is brutal. 

Awesome info.  I’m not familiar with gm’s chassis coding....  what years are the lly/lbz??

and it’s also good to hear about the dodges.  That Cummins sales tax is a real thing and I didn’t know if it was really worth it.  I rode in a friend’s 1999-2000ish gas dodge and was not impressed with the interior though can’t recall why specifically.   

you've helped me scratch one off the list and narrow down one I’m not familiar with  

are the ford 6.4’s good motors? Or should I stay with a solid 6.0?

It sure sounds to me like you just need the crew cab version of what you’ve got.  There should be plenty out there.   

My ‘99 seats 6 very comfortably.

The 6.4L is a good motor, but it will be saddled with a DPF.  It was nicknamed the slug mostly because it didn't really feel like it made its advertised power and gets much worse MPG than the 6.0L.

The LLY came out in mid 2004 and lasted through 05.  For 06, the LLY moved to the medium duty Kodiak and the Express/Savanna vans and the LBZ went into the trucks.  They are mechanically almost identical to the LLY but the LBZ gets a few more hp from a different tune.

The best of the best (in my opinion) is an 06-07 LBZ.  360hp/650tq, VVT Garrett, no DPF, it is the one to get.  04-07 LLY is the same mechanically, so it is a very close second since it is really easy to get the missing power with a reflash or a tune chip.

Dad has an earlier LB7 and had the injector failure.  He upgraded injectors to 30-over, did an air dog fuel pump, intake, exhaust, and a 5-position chip.  It now puts 958 ftlbs to the wheels.  It's fun getting sideways at 70mph on the highway.  He also has an 08 LMM dually that is really fun power, but it gets 14 mpg compared to the LB7's 19-20.

Here's the pitfall you might run into... GM didn't do very many crew cab long beds.  You'll find dozens of crew/short and some extended/long, but to get crew/long you might find that most are dually.

I have a 6.4 ford. Ill give my insight.....

People hate the 6.4, gets a bad rap, and was s short production motor. Downsides, DPF. Ford's first real go at it. It uses cyl 6 and 8 injectors to pump fuel into the exhaust on exhaust stroke to clean the filter. Bad idea, fuel washes the cylinders, run fuel thru the turbo's etc. HPFP is a bitch to get to, and hates any sign of water, will grenade entire fuel system if it dies. Many services are cab off.... Cavitation issues in the water pump and eat through the front cover. EGR coolers, same issues as the 6.0's, but updated design on the 6.4. (much of the architecture is the same between the 6 and 6.4)

My truck is on its second motor (first one died around 100k) Threw a rod through the block. Not sure if that was a stuck injector hydrolocking a cylinder or 6 or 8 catching a ring from fuel washing or who knows. 

IMO do a DPF delete and its a good motor (I have a programmer that leave the ERG valve closed also) Twin turbos, good power, quiet compared to old mechanical diesels. Mine is going into the shop for up pipes. Its DIY'able but a bitch and I don't have the time. Trans has to come out for mine.....  (cant remove cab)

Java has just successfully narrowed it down a little more :)

a 6.0 or an lbz/lly it is.   Are 06-07 pickups all lbz’s??

By the way... on GMs, just find the SPID sticker.  Looks like this below.  In cars it is usually in the trunk.  Trucks usually have it in the door jamb or glove box.  Find the L-codes in the list to verify what engine it has.  The example below has a 3.8L HO. You can also decode other options.  F codes are mostly suspension and front transaxle.  G codes are rear axle and suspension.  For instance, G80 is limited slip, GT5 is 4:10 axle ratio.  M codes are transmission, like the Allison would probably be either MBV, MBW, or MB7  Complete list HERE

That's a jewel of info right there! Thanks.

i got an 07 Dmax 6.6 and allison trans, 3500 Van express ext. It gets 17mpg with the trailer on and fits the crew.  Pulls the open trailer with racecar and doesn't really know its back there. I'm pretty sure its an LBZ but now i have to make sure LOL!!

If extended cab long bed gasser fit your needs I could put you in an '11 Silverado 2500 for significantly less than your whole budget.....

Long beds are getting harder to find, and even with just the extended cab I'm knocking on 24' long.  In fact,  there's less than 2" between the rear bumper and the wall and this is how much room is left in my new 24' garage:

Crew cab wouldn't even fit. 

I’ve already got a fantastic extra cab truck that I’d rather not part with, but if yours was a crew cab I’d be calling you :)

This is it and I would prefer to keep it but these kids just won’t stay small. 

In reply to Curtis :

So for 2007 GM trucks went from GMT800 to GMT900. Did the LBZ and LMM both power 2007 trucks? 

Ha, so my 2007 Van is an LMM, not the LBZ...(thanks to Curtis for the lovely chart!) but the LMM is not that bad from what ive read. basically the same motor as LBZ but it has the DPF and a currently 'in poor shape' EGR - anyone done the EGR delete on these?? the LMM also has an upgraded high pressure fuel pump (better than LBZ) from what i understand so the LMM could be an option for you as well jfryjfry, and they are in service til 2011 i think...

BTW - love the vette!

yupididit said:

In reply to Curtis :

So for 2007 GM trucks went from GMT800 to GMT900. Did the LBZ and LMM both power 2007 trucks? 

As I understand it, the GMT900 only apeared in Jan 06 in the Tahoe/Yukon, then Escalade, Suburban, and Avalanche by July 06.  I don't think the HD trucks went to the GMT900 until the 08 model year (so maybe Aug/Sept)

The LBZ/LLY carried over (again, as I understand it) through the end of the 07 model year.  Their main reason for going LMM in 08 was the new diesel EPA regulations going into effect.  I suppose the only way to know for sure is the SPID sticker, but I do know that it's a pretty hard line that separates the two.  If it's an 07, it's almost certainly LBZ/LLY.  If it was sold as an 08 it had to have the compliant engine - the LMM

What does get a little hazy is the Allison.  The Allison 1000 was a 5 speed up through sometime in early 2006.  Rumor has it that the 6 speed Allison started trickling into the GM trucks in 2006 but it may be hazy.  It's important to note that the 6-speed isn't any major improvement over the 5-speed.  It simply added a second overdrive and may get slightly better MPGs on the highway, but it is functionally the same box with an added planetary set in the back for a 0.61:1 double OD instead of just the 5-speed's 0.71:1 single OD.

This is also where the SPID sticker can sometime limit your information.  The RPO codes will tell you that you have an Allison transmission, but doesn't necessarily tell you which one it is.  Like I mentioned above, the G80 code means limited slip rear... but it doesn't tell you if it's a clutch style, cone style, gov-lock, torsen... It just means there is some means of sending torque to both wheels.  There are also codes for things like "rear axle 8800 gvw" but that doesn't tell you if it's the 9.5", the 10.5", full-floater, 6-lug, or 8 lug.  The only real way is just knowing what they came with or physically crawling under and looking.

The way the RPOs work is that the assembler looks at the build sheet and sees "ABF" which means Airbag, dual driver and passenger.  But that doesn't correspond to the same part number.  If they're working on a GMC Acadia, it is a different part than if they're on the line for a Chevy Sonic.  That is how you get little mixups.  As the older 5-speed Allisons are dwindling in supply and the new 6-speeds make it to the warehouse, it is sometimes possible for some trucks to get one and some to get the other.

Matt said:

Ha, so my 2007 Van is an LMM, not the LBZ...(thanks to Curtis for the lovely chart!) but the LMM is not that bad from what ive read. basically the same motor as LBZ but it has the DPF and a currently 'in poor shape' EGR - anyone done the EGR delete on these?? the LMM also has an upgraded high pressure fuel pump (better than LBZ) from what i understand so the LMM could be an option for you as well jfryjfry, and they are in service til 2011 i think...

Nothing wrong with the LMM at all.  The DPF just sucks a little more fuel.  I was unaware that the vans got the LMM before 08, but now I know.

In reply to Curtis :

Thanks again, and i got a 4L85E (kinda suprised) and 3.73 and posi...

Matt said:

In reply to Curtis :

Thanks again, and i got a 4L85E (kinda suprised) and 3.73 and posi...

Most of the Dmax vehicles got 3.73s.  Good match for the Allison's lower gears.  The 4L85E was kept in the vans instead of redesigning the crossmember/floorpan.  They wanted to keep the flat floor and assumed that van customers wouldn't worry about the fewer HP.

But, a valvebody upgrade and the factory LMM tune from a pickup is always an option  

Just a note on the 6.4 Powerstroke and I’m not trying to drag the thread down into the Pirate4x4 knuckle dragging style of conversation: that engine will humble them ALL when deleted and tuned.  Look at the rods it has for starters.  They make the current 6.7 look puny.  It’s a stud.

In reply to A 401 CJ :

Glad to hear that. I want mine to last a long time.... Mines deleted and tuned, I don't know that it's great tune.... I have to keep my foot out of it or boost gets crazy high as do EGT's at times. 

AIUI, the 2007 was a split year.  The "Silverado 2500HD Classic" was the GMT800 and got the LBZ, the "Silverado 2500HD" was the GMT900 and got the LMM.

I have an '07 classic and while many "enter your vehicle make/model/year" sites will distinguish between the classic and other, some don't.  It's often safer to search for parts for a 2006 instead.

In reply to codrus :

What do you think of your truck??