Mr_Asa
Mr_Asa SuperDork
10/26/20 4:56 p.m.

So, I'm thinking I might need a custom cam to take full advantage of a project that I am planning.  I've never really gotten deep into the weeds on cams, though so I'm not sure what I would need to know in order to be able to discuss my needs with the cam grinder.

The valve pattern for the LS head and the 4.9L are the same, so I shouldn't need to get them to swap the configuration around, but what else do I need to know?

Also, anyone that has had a custom cam cut before, do you have recommendations on companies to talk to?  About what did it run?  Would it be possible on a Challenge budget?

bentwrench
bentwrench SuperDork
10/26/20 5:09 p.m.

Dema Elgin  https://elgincams.com

 

Why a custom cam though? No aftermarket support?

Patientzero
Patientzero HalfDork
10/26/20 5:14 p.m.

I'm having a custom cam made by Cam Motion right now.  It's really not anymore expensive than an off-the-shelf cam because they're just mixing and matching pre-designed lobes to fit you're application.  A good company is going to ask a whole bunch of questions so be prepared to have answers.

What affects the price is mainly the cam core itself.  Most places that do spec custom cams don't actually have a cam grinder so they outsource to someone else.  

When I was in school at SAMTECH another student made a LS headed 4.9L Ford but I don't remember where his cam came from.  If you get in contact with Hooper's Heads down in Houston I know he was involved and can likely point you in the right direction.

 

Mr_Asa
Mr_Asa SuperDork
10/26/20 5:47 p.m.

In reply to bentwrench :

There is some aftermarket support for the engine, but not much.  Mainly my reason is that the head is going to so completely change the engine.  With what the LS head will be capable of flowing, I'll probably get close to doubling the effective RPM range of the motor.  Depending on pricing, I may look at turbo bits as well, and I know that there's no aftermarket for that.

Reminds me, I need to get my forged crank checked out.

Mr_Asa
Mr_Asa SuperDork
10/26/20 5:47 p.m.

In reply to Patientzero :

Awesome, I'll look up that shop.  Thanks

crankwalk (Forum Supporter)
crankwalk (Forum Supporter) SuperDork
10/26/20 6:22 p.m.

I had custom cams made for a 4g63  (272 in/280 ex) in about 2004 or so from Web Camshafts . They did an excellent shop and it was cheaper than HKS cams at the time for whatever that is worth now. 

 

http://www.webcamshafts.com/

Stampie (FS)
Stampie (FS) MegaDork
10/26/20 6:46 p.m.

If it helps any I've heard good things about Elgin and Web from other non GRM places.

Opti
Opti Dork
10/26/20 7:20 p.m.

All that matters is if the core is available.

 

I assume you are doing a Ford 300 with a LS Head. You can look for someone who has a lot of experience with the 300 and ask them to spec you one and send it to a grinder (most of the small guys use someone like comp for the actual grinding, they just spec it) or just call up Comps tech line and tell them what your building and they'll probably get you decent results.

 

If valve pattern is the same, then it's really not a big deal, just treat it like a normal 300 with head flow characteristics of an LS (plenty of flow charts around for reference), then spec for projected powerband/use

Peabody
Peabody UltimaDork
10/26/20 8:12 p.m.

No need to go custom. Decent off the shelf grinds are $200

https://www.crower.com/camshafts.html?cat=1171

If you have any questions, ask. I'm a cam grinder.

Mr_Asa
Mr_Asa SuperDork
10/26/20 8:17 p.m.

In reply to Peabody :

I'm still planning this build, but I'll send you an email.

akylekoz
akylekoz SuperDork
10/27/20 5:25 a.m.

Back when I was building a SBF the idea of a custom cam intrigued me.   What I found is it gets matched in two ways.  First motor size, weight of car, gearing, trans, intended use and desired rpm range, all that stuff.  Then very specific numbers like flow of the head at several different lifts, intake type, exhaust, compression ratio etc, it felt like a lot of info.   It also made sense that for a truly sweet running motor the cam would have to closely match the components. 

How about a link to Flowtech's cam form.

http://www.flowtechinduction.com/cam-tech-form/

wspohn
wspohn Dork
10/27/20 11:41 a.m.

I had Comp Cams cut me a custom cam back in the early 1990s when I wanted a turbo cam for the GM V6 for my Fiero (there wasn't anything readily available for that at the time). They were very knowledgeable and came up with a good solution for me.

You might want to talk to them.

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter)
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
10/27/20 2:34 p.m.

Many companies will grind whatever you want.  I would say that Step 1 is to look through Melling's catalog, although they only list two cams for the 4.9L.  Most cams blanks these days are made by one of a handful of companies, all of them fine.  Then they hand them off to Crane, Melling, Comp, Isky, Lunati, Schrick, etc to be ground on their own profiles.

Many of them will let you spec whatever lobes you want from their list of profiles which is extensive.  I usually end up with Melling for a couple reasons:  1) Dirt cheap.  Like less than a replacement OEM cam sometimes. 2) Their catalog has millions of grinds already in it and I can almost always find something so close to what I need that customizing it two degrees one way or the other is splitting hairs.  3) They (at least used to) let you do some fine tuning for free.  Like for instance if you found a perfect 214/222 cam with 114LSA and you wanted it on 112LSA, that's no skin off their teeth.  It's just a quick 2-second edit on the grinder.  I did that with a Marine cam that I used to build a few crate engines to sell.  I would order some 22124 cams with a 112LSA instead of the 110 in the catalog.

Back in the day when I was doing that, they had lobe patterns.  If you ordered a certain grind, they would chuck up intake lobe pattern X and exhaust lobe pattern Y, load them in the grinder and set the LSA to the spec, and grind away.  Changing things up doesn't really take any more time or effort on their part.  Theoretically, I could spec the intake lobe from a Dodge 440 and the exhaust lobe from a Chevy 4.3L application and they could grind it on a Ford blank.

Where you get into trouble sometimes is that you're circumventing the manufacturers' knowledge base.  For instance, maybe the base circle of the mopar lobe you chose is bigger than the Ford's and you would throw off the geometry, or need shorter pushrods.  There would be significant research involved, but as far as the grinder is concerned it doesn't cause them much headache to edit a few fields in the CNC interface, or chuck up one lobe pattern instead of another.

I would suggest doing some research on what other cams out there have a similar or same base circle as your 4.9L, then troll the Melling catalog for lobe profiles in those applications.  You might be able to call Melling and say that you want a 4.9L cam ground with the intake lobe from a 22890 and the exhaust lobe from a 21304 (random numbers, not real part numbers) put on a 110LSA, and they might be able to do it.

Another way you can do it is to have your cam reground with a smaller base circle and a new lobe profile within a small window, given the limited meat you have to play with in the lobe.  Kind of like when you offset grind a crank to increase stroke.  You can get a little, but not much.  Provided you aren't going wild, you can do it that way.  There are downsides though, other than just needing longer pushrods.  The smaller circle means the ramp attack angles are modestly steeper.  Not as much of a problem with rollers, but can exponentially be cause for concern on flat tappets.  You'll either run into excess wear, or you'll have to grind the ramps milder to compensate... which is not a good performance choice.

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter)
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
10/27/20 2:51 p.m.

Be aware that the more expensive grinders (Comp, Crane, Lunati) have established a real name for themselves in racing, and their knowledge and engineering is fantastic, but they sort of have two faces:  The race face, and the street face.  The street face is 95% of their business, and all day long they field calls about "I want a lumpy idle in my truck," and "I need 300 hp in my Civic" from customers without any experience in how VE theory actually works.  They get so many of those calls that they have engineered entire lines of cams called things like mother thumper and voodoo which are basically cams for people who don't drive other than from the trailer to the lawn at the car show.  They want a sound without any regard to performance.

For this reason, many of the big name cam brands assume they're talking with a kid with a backwards hat on the other end of the phone and may not give the most concise advice.  They'll use their cute software and plug in things and it spits out three options, possibly none of which will actually satisfy the customer.  They also have streamlined their valve spring offerings.  They might offer 400 cams for a small block chevy, but they only offer about 15 valve springs; each one designed to attempt to cover a wide range of lobe profiles.  The last time I took Comp's suggestion on a cam/spring package, the cam I chose was the mildest cam for the next step up in springs, and the seat pressures were WAY above optimal.  Fortunately the guy who was helping me build noticed it and we ordered proper springs from a machine shop.

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