Learn me: LeMons

Me and a small team (5 of us at this time) are thinking of entering a car into next year’s LeMons race in NJ. So we’d have from now until May to find a suitable ride and make the needed mods. My thought process is to find something that is not too complicated (I see a bunch of Nissan Maximas for sale that look reasonable – thoughts???). I wouldn’t want to do anything special to the base car, except to perform all the usual major tune up items like plugs wires fluids, brakes, etc. The goal will be to have the car as stock and reliable as possible. Then strip everything out that’s not necessary and build in all the safety gear. The last phase would be to incorporate our “theme”. In that way if we run out of time, we’d still have a running / driving car to bring. I figure that scope management is key in keeping this thing on track. One of our team members has a fully equipped shop, so we should be in great shape regarding the facilities. So, what am I missing? Please share whatever tips and tricks and lessons learned that I have not put any thought into at this time.

Thanks for your help! Paul

Your line of thinking is spot on. Be very aware that it is not a $500 in-real-money car. To get a car to its first race you're looking at more like $3-5,000 depending on how much you farm out (mainly the cage here). Decide how ownership will be in the team. Split it all up evenly or a one-person owner? Money upfront or pay in as you go along? We started as an even split team but as some people come and go it just wasn't working. I now pay for everything and "rent" it out come race time.

First, make sure all 4 of your buddies are 100% committed to this. You don't want to get halfway into it and have them bail.

Second, ross2004 is right in that you should budget about $5k to build a car if you're doing it from scratch, then budget your race entry fee, fuel, parts stash, etc... It gets expensive in a hurry. A car like a Maxima will probably burn something like 6 gallons per hour on track. So for an 8 hour day, you'll burn 48 gallons of fuel. Do the math. Then the cost of tires, brakes, etc... If you want to build a car from a street car, by all means go for it. But it ain't cheap or easy. You may want to try to find a car already built specifically for LeMons and that has raced recently. Much, much cheaper entry. Check the LeMons boards, they pop up fairly often. Ask around if you see one, you'll find someone who knows the car and can vouch (or not vouch) for it.

The theming is a ton of fun, but I agree you can do that last. You can whip up a theme fairly quickly. Some teams don't do much of one at all. We tend to go full in, and it's a blast.

You'll find that the LeMons garage is full of great people. Show up to the track with the right attitude and you'll find no shortage of people who will bend over backwards to help make sure you get on track and just give you any pointers you need.

Remember, it's endurance racing, not sprint racing. So build the car with that intent, and most importantly make sure you and your co-drivers have that in mind. As they always say in LeMons "You can't win the race on the first lap, but you sure as hell can lose it on the first lap". Steady, clean, consistent is what gets you high in the finishing order. Speed helps, but one black flag can ruin your weekend from a competitive standpoint.

NJMP is a fun track to run for a first timer. Lots of paddock space, the track is wide and makes for good racing. Rules are very strict in Jersey. For example, your safety belts MUST be less than 2 years old.

Klayfish wrote: NJMP is a fun track to run for a first timer. Lots of paddock space, the track is wide and makes for good racing. Rules are very strict in Jersey. For example, your safety belts MUST be less than 2 years old.

Thanks for that info! Good to know about the 2 year rule on belts and thanks for suggesting to look on the LeMons boards. Will do that too!

My team has been successfully running a 2.3 Lima mustang for a couple of years now, three races per season. Reliability is key with around 100 cars in each race you will have someone to run with.

We have six guys on our team most with kids and busy lives, there are times when it takes serious shaming to get four of us out for a race. One race we just had a friend sign up and just watch to get the requires four drivers. I have seen husband and wife teams where the wives never drive. Bottom line is it doesn't hurt to get an extra team member or two to help with scheduling.

Figure we get two races out of a set of $600 tires. Three or Four out of a set of $100 pads. Budget more time than you think you will need to for modifications and repairs, mostly after the first race.

All good advise here! Have you read the section at the Lemons website labeled " How not to fail tech?" Read it, then read it again, and then go back and read it again out loud to yourself. If you then have any questions post them at the Lemons forum and read the answers from those that have "been there and done that".

Having been to many a Lemons race as a "consultant" to various teams I have observed that about 1/3 of the teams are in it only for the fun & good times that can be had, 1/3 are also in it for the fun but want to be competitive, and the last 1/3 just want to win! You should plan on being in the first group for your first effort, especially if you or your friends have no experience racing cars in your past.

Considering the latest LeMons race cars are tube-framed BMW Z3's with fiberglass AMX bodies on them... don't expect to win or go fast. $5,000 is the minimum to build a car capable of surviving the race, and that doesn't include entry and consumables.

First race we swapped drivers every 45 min that way we all get a chance to drive before our Creeps List special dies, it didn't. We have come as close as third place in a 24 hour race class C starting 10 laps in the hole, still with one hour stints behind the wheel. To win you need to run full tanks of fuel and have a good spot in the pits on top of luck and a very well prepared car.

Of our six drivers there is at least a ten second per lap spread. Some have the drive to win most are there for a lot of cheap seat time and a great atmosphere for fun.

LeMons racing is like painting a car. Success is dependent nearly entirely on prep. Get everything done well beforehand and test the car a few times to find weaknesses or things you just don't like.

Ergonomics matter. Make sure your team is comfortable in the car.

Mirrors are really important. It's very unlikely that you'll be the fastest car out there. You don't want to be "that guy" who was unaware of a closing car and made a silly move that caused a wreck.

Avoid wrecks. Period.

Attach wires to anything you're going to remove and then put back on the car during the race. Hood pins, gas caps etc. You don't want to lose them in the heat of fueling up.

Pay it forward. If you get a favor make sure you pay it forward at your earliest chance. Good karma goes a long way in the pits.

I've done the heavy theme thing:

But this year we're playing it a little more straight with a fresh build

Javelin wrote: Considering the latest LeMons race cars are tube-framed BMW Z3's with fiberglass AMX bodies on them... don't expect to win or go fast. $5,000 is the *minimum* to build a car capable of surviving the race, and that doesn't include entry and consumables.

Um, "tube-framed" only in the sense that a Z3 body pan with a cage counts as "tube-framed." I was there and checked the car out in person and spoke with the builder. To make the body he bought a rusty basket case horrible AMX and hand laid fiberglass over it and pulled that off and used it as the new body. So it's slightly bigger in every dimension than a real AMX. The build of the car stems from the last time they raced the Z3, Judge Phil told him the only way he was going to let them race without serious penalty laps was if they somehow turned the car into an AMX. He was amazed that they not only listened but actually did it!

The car was fast but not the fastest thing out there. The team's work in being prepared, doing long stints, driving very cleanly, and doing quick fueling and driver changes was key to the win. Plenty of cars were just as fast or faster but couldn't stay on track or hit things or collected other black flags and served penalties.

The AMX is an awesome build but it's not some IMSA car or something. It's literally a Z3 with a cage that has had the body cut off and a hand laid fiberglass body bolted on. That's not exactly top tier motorsports stuff.

You know how people say "this is as much fun as you can have with your pants on"?

Lemons is as much fun as you can have.

Don't worry about winning. Don't hit anything, don't fail tech, don't forget to bring safety gear, don't forget spares, don't forget smiles. It can be as cheap as you weant or as expensive as you want.

The cars really are that cheap, don't listen to naysayers, especially as nearly all of them have never been to an actual race. Don't sit around and decide you need a 1998 240SX and then go look for one. Go and look at Craigslist with a $200 max price, and buy whatever looks cool and looks like you can make it run.

dculberson wrote:

Javelin wrote: Considering the latest LeMons race cars are tube-framed BMW Z3's with fiberglass AMX bodies on them... don't expect to win or go fast. $5,000 is the *minimum* to build a car capable of surviving the race, and that doesn't include entry and consumables.

Um, "tube-framed" only in the sense that a Z3 body pan with a cage counts as "tube-framed." I was there and checked the car out in person and spoke with the builder. To make the body he bought a rusty basket case horrible AMX and hand laid fiberglass over it and pulled that off and used it as the new body. So it's slightly bigger in every dimension than a real AMX. The build of the car stems from the last time they raced the Z3, Judge Phil told him the only way he was going to let them race without serious penalty laps was if they somehow turned the car into an AMX. He was amazed that they not only listened but actually did it! The car was fast but not the fastest thing out there. The team's work in being prepared, doing long stints, driving very cleanly, and doing quick fueling and driver changes was key to the win. Plenty of cars were just as fast or faster but couldn't stay on track or hit things or collected other black flags and served penalties. The AMX is an awesome build but it's not some IMSA car or something. It's literally a Z3 with a cage that has had the body cut off and a hand laid fiberglass body bolted on. That's not exactly top tier motorsports stuff.

Thanks for typing all that so I could just say "I agree"

Our car started as a failed broject, whoops, wait, yeah that's what I meant. Some kid wanted to build a race car, got it 80% legal and 90% finished. We just made it legal, safe and went racing. Learned a lot and made changes as we went.

Don't forget the residual value clause. We did and got penalized for adding stuff between races with out approval.

I recommend starting with someone's used car or mostly finished project. Unless you have the time and money that is.

DaveEstey wrote: LeMons racing is like painting a car. Success is dependent nearly entirely on prep. Get everything done well beforehand and test the car a few times to find weaknesses or things you just don't like. Ergonomics matter. Make sure your team is comfortable in the car. Mirrors are really important. It's very unlikely that you'll be the fastest car out there. You don't want to be "that guy" who was unaware of a closing car and made a silly move that caused a wreck. Avoid wrecks. Period. Attach wires to anything you're going to remove and then put back on the car during the race. Hood pins, gas caps etc. You don't want to lose them in the heat of fueling up. Pay it forward. If you get a favor make sure you pay it forward at your earliest chance. Good karma goes a long way in the pits. I've done the heavy theme thing:

Hah, small world. One of the guys behind the Mad Max rhd car reached out to me about an open seat for NHMS yesterday in their 1950's Chrysler New Yorker, haha. Pretty sure I'm going to do it.

After racing Lemons and Chump for years, my advice is:

1. Buy a used race car. I was at the Lemons race last weekend and speaking with a guy that had a nice Accord for sale, ready to race, with all the spares you need. $1500. That is the easy button. PM me and I'll put you in touch with him.

2. Get the money up front.

Lots of great advice guys, thanks!

I have a multi race winning 1st gen rx7 with a ton of spares for 3k.

Needs brake pads, tires, and new seatbelts to race.

Carb'd 12a. 5 speed manual.

Fully sorted.

Horrible body.

So I just popped my Lemons cherry this weekend and wanted to bump this thread because there is SO MUCH valuable advice/information in it. I had a few offers for arrive and drive situations, and almost took one of them, but decided to just hold off until next year on account of me being short notice. I was planning to go as a spectator and meet up with a few GRM'ers, and hopefully network my way into a 'decent' driving scenario for next year sometime. By 'decent', I mean a team that is moderately competent, not so competitive that I'd feel bad about babying a car that I don't own, and generally fun human beings.

It turned out that I got a last minute phone call about a spot that opened up on a rookie team. The car seemed to be sorted pretty well, and although it couldn't be further than what I'm used to driving, I accepted and sent the money along. It turned out to be a damn near perfect experience. We battled a failed coupling on the hot side of the turbo that took us out of contention early, but the car was fast, fun, and an absolute riot in the rain! I managed to stay clean all weekend with 0 penalty box visits or black flags, and got my stint in early on Sunday right before we lost boost completely, which rendered the car almost useless. We didn't finish well in the standings, but the weekend was a glaring success regardless.

My experience in bulleted observations is summed up below, from a first timer's perspective-

• Wheel to wheel racing is not even in the same league as HPDE or TT. You will be in over your head for the first few laps, I promise. It's best to settle down, stay smooth, and focus on your mirrors. Pick up pace as you feel more comfortable.
• I was amazed at the # of teams still doing MAJOR work on their cars mere hours before tech inspection. It got to the point where I almost felt bad not needing to work on the car before the race. One of the teams that I almost paid a very hefty sum of money to drive for didn't even get onto the track until about 3pm saturday, and it wasn't because they failed tech- it was because the car wasn't running yet. Being honest, I would have been quite upset about that situation, so be careful if you are planning to arrive and drive without knowing who you're getting into bed (business) with. I got lucky.
• Offer to help and it pays off. I helped install some ghetto fenders onto a prelude after failing tech on Friday night, and on Saturday when I was a moron and didn't bring enough food and was deliriously hungry after 2 hours straight in the car, they let me in on their seriously impressive food spread.
• DO NOT BE AN A-HOLE- I witnessed exactly how and what you should do and not do if you do find your way into a spin or accident. 2 cars made contact, both went to the penalty box. Car A driver came in, said sorry and it wont happen again, and was sent on his merry way. Car B driver came in, said it was all the other guys fault and he was innocent, then completely flipped his lid after being told he had to sit 30min. That 30 minutes turned into 'put your car in the garage or on your trailer and if I so much as see it driving for the rest of the day, I'll bring back the crusher rule on it'. 1 team member's hot head got the entire team parked for an entire day, and that was early in the morning.
• The best defense is a good offense- I'm not advocating for driving aggressively, but if you are faster than the car in front of you and see an opening, take it. Because if you don't, the 4 other cars behind you will, and you'll be relegated to a half-lap of moving pylon duty until the freight train behind you finally clears. I was much much more comfortable driving at a faster pace and passing off-line and unconventionally than I was when I was hesitant and trying to make the easy pass. Be confident and decisive. If you've paused, you're probably too late and are gonna be passed on both sides before going into a track bottleneck.

golfduke wrote: - I was amazed at the # of teams still doing MAJOR work on their cars mere hours before tech inspection. It got to the point where I almost felt bad not needing to work on the car before the race. One of the teams that I almost paid a very hefty sum of money to drive for didn't even get onto the track until about 3pm saturday, and it wasn't because they failed tech- it was because the car wasn't running yet. Being honest, I would have been quite upset about that situation, so be careful if you are planning to arrive and drive without knowing who you're getting into bed (business) with.

Same here for the one blind A&D date I did (and a very well-known team.) They STARTED caging and prepping the car Friday afternoon. That was 5-6 years ago. Today, I wouldn't have gotten in.

A seat costs about $650, because its a commodity market. Do your homework, because anyone who has ever done this knows that $650 is below cost.

Paying for a seat is a really smart move, if you're smart about it. Preferably as a team member versus an A&D.

I'm of a different opinion on buying any old car and taking it racing -- buy a proven platform, because you can't GIVE away your Paseo, Cavalier, Olds Achieva, Pontiac Bonneville, etc when you're done with it. A fox body, Miata, MX3, E30, E36, GS300 will still have a market as a used race car.

Lastly, consider a platform that can cross over into other venues -- Chump, AER, SCCA, NASA. This is a time-consuming, expensive proposition. Don't build a piece of crap, because the cost spread between "barely capable of passing tech" and "well-built vintage-y race car" is only ~20%.

I did Tech and Penalty Box for several LeMons events. All good advice here. +1 on buying an existing racecar if you can-- it will be cheaper, you'll (hopefully) have less sorting to do, and it will have been through Tech.

It has been a few years since I was involved, but unless things have changed, these are the three top things we saw that tended to fail Tech:

1. Safety harnesses installed incorrectly. You wouldn't believe the number of cars (almost always first time racers) that had harnesses that had been looped around a roll cage and not passed through the buckles correctly. You could just pull on them and they would come undone. Follow the manufacturers' instructions-- it is all in there.
2. Cages not fully or properly welded. We often found that in hard top cars the cage was run up around the roof. Since the welder couldn't get around the circumference of the bars, they would just weld them what you could see about 3/4 around. Fail. In my experience, your chances of ending up upside down are greater in LeMons than any other racing. Make sure your cage is right.
3. Fire systems out of reach of the driver or bottles improperly secured.

I'd second the humility in the Penalty Box idea. I don't think the punishments are as elaborate or as demeaning as they used to be, but shiny happy people always got more grief than anyone else. Everyone was there for fun (including the staff), and if you didn't "get it" you were gonna get "it." Especially if you show up regularly-- punishments will escalate quickly.

The racing aspect has become much more serious than it used to be. Accept that someone will be cheating like a mad dog and might even win. This is not the SCCA, the "judging" is arbitrary, corrupt, and inconsistent, largely by design.

On budget, don't forget about the personal safety gear, fire suits aren't cheap.

And definitely don't fart in them while on track. There's only 1 place for it to go, and that's straight to the helmet.

Glad to hear you had a great time!! What car were you driving?

I was driving the #41 Civic hatchback with giraffe theme (including head sticking out on top of the car), and the #42 Isuzu Hombre/Chevy S10 themed like a landscapers truck. I drove opening shift both Saturday (in the #41) and Sunday (in the #42).

I had an awesome weekend, as always. LeMons is amazing. You're right, it's nothing remotely close to TT or HPDE. Car control skills you learn in HPDE definitely come into play, but traffic management is an entirely different ballgame. I've done a lot of LeMons races, and this was my 3rd at NHMS. There were more cars there than in years past, I'm pretty sure. It was a E36 M3 ton of traffic, which is a lot of fun to get to race with. I was very pleasantly surprised at the lack of spins, contact and general mayhem. Given track conditions, lots of rookies, and lots of traffic, I was expecting it to be messy. While it had its' moments, I can say it was generally much better than I expected.

You're right about a lot of your points. I would only suggest to use caution when exercising your last point about taking a hole if one opens up in traffic. You are absolutely right that if you get stuck behind a slower car, others will dart around you like you're standing still and you have to wait for the freight train to go by. I've been on both sides of that equation. I've driven plenty of slow cars...ones built strictly for IOE contention, as well as really fast cars (though I'm not the fastest driver). Sure, if you're 100% sure a hole is there, by all means take it. But be really sure nobody else is about to jump in that hole too. LeMons is an endurance race. You don't make laps if you're stuffed into a wall or sitting in penalty box. You can't win a race in one corner, but you sure as E36 M3 can lose it. I'm not at all saying you're wrong on your thoughts, I've been in that situation hundreds of times. But sometimes I've just had to bite the bullet and let the train go by. I'd rather do that and have fun chasing them back down than do something to put our car in a spot it shouldn't be and ruin our day/weekend. Turning laps is the name of the game.

Hope you come back for another race. It's addicting, ain't it?

Klayfish wrote: Glad to hear you had a great time!! What car were you driving? I was driving the #41 Civic hatchback with giraffe theme (including head sticking out on top of the car), and the #42 Isuzu Hombre/Chevy S10 themed like a landscapers truck. I drove opening shift both Saturday (in the #41) and Sunday (in the #42). I had an awesome weekend, as always. LeMons is amazing. You're right, it's nothing remotely close to TT or HPDE. Car control skills you learn in HPDE definitely come into play, but traffic management is an entirely different ballgame. I've done a lot of LeMons races, and this was my 3rd at NHMS. There were more cars there than in years past, I'm pretty sure. It was a E36 M3 ton of traffic, which is a lot of fun to get to race with. I was very pleasantly surprised at the lack of spins, contact and general mayhem. Given track conditions, lots of rookies, and lots of traffic, I was expecting it to be messy. While it had its' moments, I can say it was generally much better than I expected. You're right about a lot of your points. I would only suggest to use caution when exercising your last point about taking a hole if one opens up in traffic. You are absolutely right that if you get stuck behind a slower car, others will dart around you like you're standing still and you have to wait for the freight train to go by. I've been on both sides of that equation. I've driven plenty of slow cars...ones built strictly for IOE contention, as well as really fast cars (though I'm not the fastest driver). Sure, if you're 100% sure a hole is there, by all means take it. But be really sure nobody else is about to jump in that hole too. LeMons is an endurance race. You don't make laps if you're stuffed into a wall or sitting in penalty box. You can't win a race in one corner, but you sure as E36 M3 can lose it. I'm not at all saying you're wrong on your thoughts, I've been in that situation hundreds of times. But sometimes I've just had to bite the bullet and let the train go by. I'd rather do that and have fun chasing them back down than do something to put our car in a spot it shouldn't be and ruin our day/weekend. Turning laps is the name of the game. Hope you come back for another race. It's addicting, ain't it?

I was in the black beetle for the rain stint on Saturday (like 1-3pm or so?) and opening stint on Sunday. Both were great fun for totally different reasons, haha. I actually hung out at your garage on Friday night for a bit, as I let one of the team members work from my place on Friday and we talked shop for a good while. I am a little upset that I left before the bubbles were thrown into the hottub though, haha.

I'm sure I'll be back. The team I ran with invited me back for next year, which is great since they were awesome. It also gives me some time to more slowly build up a car of my own. I know it's much cheaper to just buy one built out, but I kind of want to be a masochist and do it myself. I don't know for sure, but I'm definitely planning on doing at least 2 races next year.