Learn Me: Porsche 964...

I'll happily agree to disagree with you on 996 price appreciation. That's not gonna happen unless its a GT3 or Turbo. Porsche made an enormous amount of them, they're not sought after, they have many documented, expensive engine issues, the interior build quality is wanting and they're much uglier than the generation previous and the generation after them.

That doesn't mean that they aren't lovely driving cars, they are. It's just that I don't want one for all the reasons I've listed above and in my previous posts. I could be swayed by a nice Turbo, but those have started to climb in value and a decent one is going to cost me $40k.

I've driven many of the older air cooled 911's and I just don't like them. I certainly don't disagree with your assessment of the SC's reliability but I don't like the car. It's a slightly overpowered beetle. Particularly up here at altitude, it sucks serious wind. Between that, the crappy ergonomics and my feeling that it never moved out of the mid '60's, its just not what I'm looking for.

I'd love a 993 but those are out of my price range. So that leaves me the 964 as something that's modern enough, is snappy enough power wise, is still air cooled and I won't lose my shirt on it.

996 prices are slowly on the uptick right now. FWIW, air cooled prices are up and down. I think part of that is a market correction. There are A LOT of 911s period. They aren't Ferraris or Aston Martins. I also think your estimation on performance is wrong. I've driven almost every 911 made, except full blown race cars, 67S and 73RS, and the difference between an sc with headers and a stock 964 is negligable. A 964 weighs almost 3100 lbs and puts out 250 bhp, an sc with a header exhaust is 204 bhp and it weighs about 2600 lbs. 46 bhp less but 500 lbs less and I think its 10 lbs per horse power, which would put an sc 4 bhp up on a 964 using that math. And Ergonomics? Really, the 964 is the same car with a built in center console. It has the same stupid HVAC controls, upside down pedals, etc. I'm not sure where you are getting the ergonomics issue from. They do feel a little bit more "cushy" than a 911, but, again, for me on a non-DD, that's a negative. (personal taste)

Dad's 1983 sc had ~220 rwhp. Lots of work done to it. with him in it was 2600 lbs. Thats per the internet nearly 300 lbs lighter than the CURB of a 996 (not including a 250 lb driver or fuel.)

a brutal fun machine to drive locally or to work on a friday. Mountain run? fun, but the drive home sucked ass as you were tired as hell from driving a "man machine"...

rebuilds were expensive as hell. first one was 8k, when the first machinist's shoddy work on the bearings came to light by tearing a hole in the block when the connect rod let go of the piston at 6k rpm the second rebuild took 12k. The third was 40k miles later when the oil pump let go (a case of a missed whileyouratits). I think the last one was 6k only and webcam racing rewelded and ground the cams for him free (warrantied it). last iteration had the best hp, best drive ability but he literally feared driving it everytime waiting on something to blow.

That car had THE best sound I've ever heard from a car... (tuned length '74 headers.)

I was offered a complete very low mileage 964 less engine for 6K that was in fantastic condition. It was purchased by a Porsche specialist I know just for the very low mileage motor for a customers car (some rare variant of the 964). He almost had me convinced that I should get it and he would help me put a Subi motor in it. It was a strange install as you had to put twin radiators up in the front to cool it. I almost did it. I would have jumped if I could have got it for free (I tried to convince him it was a good deal for him as it would be out of his way) but the reality was that the 6K price was two-thirds of what he figured he could get if he parted it out. In the end he was corect as he parted it for close to 12K between the interior, the trans and the wheels and some of the sheetmetal and the glass.

Hmm, someone on this board just bought a 996 for under $13k didn't they? 996 GT3's and 996 Turbo's are going up. The rest of the 996's, not so much.

Air cooled prices have increased steadily the last ten years. You used to be able to buy an SC for under $10k and $15k got you practically any SC you wanted. Now they're $30k+. The older long nose 911's are crazy expensive. A 993C4S is practically a 6 figure car now, ten years ago it was $35k.

Obviously I can't predict the future but any air cooled is still gives you a better chance of recouping your money vs a 996.

You've driven all those cars but have you driven them at 6000 feet above sea level? I have and the numbers you're throwing out bely how they really feel up here.

The 964 has hvac controls like I'm used to from my 951. The entire car feels much more modern than an SC.

You have what you like, I have what I like. That makes neither of us wrong.

Well, it seems you're an EFI guy, fine, and that you want a 964, fine again. No reason to denegrate the other cars. FWIW, you are wrong on may statements. The HVAC is not like your 951. It uses heat exchangers and even when new, you could smell the oil. In fact, for some reason, the 993 and 964s were worse than the earlier cars. Also as to value, it hasn't been a steady climb. 2 years ago, SCs were 15k all day long. G50 Carreras saw a spike to near 30 and come back down, but it was limited to them and the SWB long hoods. All you have to do is to look to 356 values. They climbed to stupid levels less than 10 years ago and came back down some and have settled in. You can get a good, clean 356C for about 30-40k. A little steep but, it is what it is. You can get a good SC driver for 20K if you search and try and find a nice 996/2 for under 20K. ONe with issues, sure, without, nah. And you can get 996 turbos for 30-35k. Its only GT3s that are clearly above 50k and will never be back down. So, in the end, get what you want. All 911s have pluses and minuses and it's down to the guy buying it. You want an 964, buy it!

Well, I think you're wrong here on many things too!

I have trouble picking a "favorite" 911, but that is the great thing about the model line....there really is almost something for everyone. I currently have an 85 Carrera targa, 87 930, 96 993 targa, and just made a deal on a very low mileage g50 coupe that I'll pick up in two weeks. It's obvious that I gravitate toward the 80s 911s....I truly love that era in the line, but there are some incredible cars before and after as well. I would like to sell my 993 targa to fund a 993 twin turbo, but it's going to be very hard for me to find a 993TT at the price I'd like. For now I plan to sell my 993 targa and put the money aside and just beat the bushes for a 993TT with needs that I can get below market.

I like the 996 model also, and have many times came close to getting a 996TT, but right now I keep getting pulled back in to the ac cars.

Now I'm seeing 997.1 Turbo cars starting to come down in price. If given the choice between a 996 TT and a 997 TT, I'd take the latter!

dyintorace wrote: Now I'm seeing 997.1 Turbo cars starting to come down in price. If given the choice between a 996 TT and a 997 TT, I'd take the latter!

oh hell yeah. I haven't even looked at those. Maybe I should.

Link to some other car magazine's article

Link to a car I saw on craigslist

Friend of mine just picked up a 997.1 Turbo and its impressive to say the least. I'd love to buy one but the $70k he paid is far too rich for me.

This is a toy purchase for me, something I truly don't need and have to justify to myself. I can't justify $70k, I can barely justify the $30k the 964 will run me...

I think at 30k for a clean 964 C2, you can't really go wrong if it passes the PPI with no problems and if you have funds left over in case it needs anything. As you've noted, it's very unlikely to drop below that. The used part market is pretty healthy, and online support is awesome. I'd definitely prefer a C2 to my C4, though the C4 "horror" stories are largely internet propaganda.

Hopefully you don't mind a bit of oil seepage/minor leaks. It gets expensive if you want a perfectly dry engine, which is relatively difficult to achieve and keep.

The car wakes up nicely with an alignment, fresh dampers, good rubber, muffler bypass, chip and RS flywheel, if you get to that: beyond that, obtaining more poke gets seriously pricy. Nevertheless, it's a mid-high 13sec car at that point - so it's not slow.

That would be a $80+++k car here (Australia), in the current climate. No, you can't just ship them over, unfortunately. http://www.carsales.com.au/car/porsche/911carrera/964-series/

This thread pretty much makes me glad that I don't have a 911 of any vintage.

T.J. wrote: This thread pretty much makes me glad that I don't have a 911 of any vintage.

The worst part of owning a 911 is associating with other 911 owners and their opinions about 911's. The cars themselves are lovely.

T.J. wrote: This thread pretty much makes me glad that I don't have a 911 of any vintage.

Luckily people like Doc and Wemple aren't representative of ALL Porsche owners, don't let their nonsense turn you off of the cars.

In reply to mazdeuce:

Not unlike BMW, Mercedes, Ferrari and other similar high end marques.

I wouldn't compare owners of older Porsches to those of other high end marques. We are more likely to work on our own cars, be more knowledgeable about the marque, and spend a higher portion of our budget on them. Granted, owners of newer Porsches, non sports car Porsche and those who say porsh tend to be snobs, but guys who really drive these are usually full blown gearheads. This thread just shows options and the variety of 911s. As said, something for everyone. It's just that there are a lot of misconceptions out there on which years are better and why and the uptick in prices have changed attitudes. Kinda sad as these are very good daily drivers and now people will look at them as investments instead of driving the crap out of them. I hope doc pours miles on his 964 and forgets this investment stuff. Enjoy it. Just enjoy it.

I fully intend to Mark! I also intend on doing almost all the wrenching on it, just like I do on my Cayenne and my M3.

I just tend to flip my cars every few years and because of that I need to factor in depreciation etc so I don't lose my shirt.

It's just my personal preference of 964 vs 996, I agree with pretty much all your observations.

Hi Focus Fanboi Stefan! The Porsche community wants guys like Mark and me. We're knowledgable, passionate and willing to freely give our time, skills and tools to keep them on the road.

Yup. It's amazing how many real 911 guys will help when you really need it. Kinda like the bugeye group. Only bugeye guys will travel hours to help. Best bunch ever.

Hmm, someone on this board just bought a 996 for under $13k didn't they? 996 GT3's and 996 Turbo's are going up. The rest of the 996's, not so much.

I did. If you think you can replicate that, i recommend it. Probably even if you don't like the car.

There were fewer 964s made than most (all?) other aircooled 911s. I don't think it's a bubble. They're going up and will continue to do so. Hell, narrow body mid-year cars are now over $30k.

It comes down to finding the right car, previous owner, and a price you can live with. I think you're on the right track, if you want an aircooled 911.

Several of the issues have already been covered. I thought I read they were manufactured without head gaskets? The solution is to put the gaskets in, and replace the studs at the same time. Most have had this done by now.

So the only thing I disagree with you on is the whale tail. If I ever get a 911, the tail will be the first thing to go. If that happens, I'll give you a call. ;)

Quick note: it's not 'that' easy to fit head gaskets to the cars. The heads and barrels have to be machined to suit. Not impossible, but not a matter of slipping a gasket in at assembly. Somewhat specialized machining. Later cars have the gasket (post 92ish).

According to the hive at Rennlist, Porsche started putting head gaskets on the cars in '91 and any '92 and later car should have them.

That said, by now most of the early cars should have had the head gasket fix done already.

This car I'm looking at is a '92 with the later plastic manifold, so it should have the head gaskets.

I love the tail, it makes the early 911's. That's the greatest thing about our hobby tho, it can be many things to many people...