Learn Me Thread Number MMMMCMXCIX: 2000 Saturn S-series

My local small-town car lot has an '00 Saturn S Wagon which caught my eye recently. I thought to myself "Boy, that thing looks clean! Surely it's not a 5-speed..."

Well, I stopped to look at it today, and it IS a 5-speed. It has 97k on it, and is also a twin cam (6500 tach, rear sway-bar). The interior looks mint except for a tear on the driver's-side bolster.

I have always casually admired these, but I know nothing of Saturns. What do you guys think of these? What is this thing worth?

This is it:

That is a wonderful choice of economical utility.
Not worth that much but this being a car dealer and it being tax time I bet he has it priced at $5,499 and I bet he has less than $3,000 in it.

By modern day standards, the S-series Saturns sits very low to the ground.
These were designed before the current "tall box" design of economical cars (think Toyota Echo, Nissan Versa, Chevy Sonic)

I'd say around $3K. That's a good solid DD for the next 200k miles. We're looking at replacing my wife's Gen 1 Prius with one of these because A) Baby and B) having 2 of the same car makes everything easier. The car will have a few minor things go out in the next 100k miles (radiator, alternator, waterpump) but they are very cheap and extremely simple to replace.

As I've been looking into this a lot lately, the cargo space inside that car is damn near unmatched by anything new. The Fit is very close in capacity, but almost anything else under 3000lbs isn't even in the same ballpark.

99+ S series are great cars, but for performance you want an older one with the 91-98 head on it. 99 was a bastard year for powertrain. 2000 means it could have an air pump or not.

Only thing to watch for from a DD standpoint is: Has the oil been changed. Neglected oil changes in these cars cause problems. Oil control rings gunk up, and timing chain tensioner clogs/fails. Its common for them to burn a little oil, but if its smoking on startup or the dipstick is dry you may want to walk away.

If that car were close to me I would strongly consider it. If it were an auto and closer I'd probably jump on it for the wife. I've had CL alerts setup for SW2s for a few months now and found pretty much nothing worthwhile.

Thanks for the feedback.

He has it priced at $2900.

I'm mainly looking for a practical daily driver which is mildly amusing to drive, and won't make me feel as much like a bottom feeder as my '90 Corolla wagon does. (This would be the newest car I've ever had, not counting wife-mobiles.) If the Corolla was a manual I'd carry on with it, but the 3-speed auto really sucks out the soul.

Now, the smart thing would be for me to put my damned turbo 626 back together and drive it as I was doing previously. But I guess I've got the auto-ADD.

JamesMcD wrote: I have always casually admired these, but I know nothing of Saturns. What do you guys think of these? What is this thing worth?

Check the rear doorsills and the area behind the rear wheels for rust. The plastic body skins do a very good job of hiding body rust.

When these were new, EGR faults were common. Now that they are older, the EGR faults have switched from the valves themselves to blowing the driver transistor in the PCM. I do not know if the issue has been resolved, but the last time I had to deal with this, aftermarket PCMs come blank-slate and need to be flashed by a dealer, but dealerships don't want to touch someone else's computer, but you can't get PCMs through the dealer network, so a blown transistor here in emissions-testing-land meant a scrapped Saturn. I'm sure there's a WAY, but people tend to balk at putting large sums of money into a throwaway car, and "American compact" = "throwaway car" in most peoples' minds.

EDIT!!! I think Autoecms.com will now repair your computer on a turnaround basis, or they will reflash your old programming/VIN/odometer/etc data into one of their remaufactured PCMs for you.

JamesMcD wrote: Thanks for the feedback. He has it priced at $2900. I'm mainly looking for a practical daily driver which is mildly amusing to drive, and won't make me feel as much like a bottom feeder as my '90 Corolla wagon does.

Buy, Mortimer, buy! If the specific car isn't a POS.

S-series cars are very connected feeling. All controls are direct without being heavy. The downside is you also feel like you're directly connected to the buzzy little engine especially if the front motor mount is sagged. (If you can fit your fingertips between the rubber and the steel upper halo, the mount is sagged. It's a Saturn mainenance item. You'll wonder why you didn't do it sooner after you replace a sagged one. Huge NVH problem in that mount)

We've had good luck with decarbonizing oilburning Saturns. At the delaership level we'd rering the engines at ~80-90k miles, but honestly I'd never seen one physically worn out, the rings were just stuck with carbon in a kind of positive feedback loop of stuck rings causing burning oil causing more carbon causing stuck rings.

Assuming it checks out mechanically, that's a pretty good price. I paid $500 less for mine, but it was 1. not a wagon 2. 132K miles 3. single cam 4. base model 5. in Michigan and 6. non-dealer purchase. When I was looking, the conventional wisdom was any SL was good, but there were some minor issues late in the run. I ended up with a 1997, so I promptly forgot what they were. Honestly, my only beef with mine is the shifter is really sloppy. I have no doubt that could be remedied or at least improved with work/money I'm not willing to put into my car since its a trash hauler/winter beater. My only regrets with mine are that I'll probably be stuck with it forever and its not a wagon.

the bushing at the base of the shifter can be replaced with a "repair bushing" that most auto parts stores have. It's like $20, but it really helps. Otherwise, a whole new shifter linkage from dorman is about $100 and then you're really fixed up.

JamesMcD wrote: Thanks for the feedback. He has it priced at $2900.

that's really fair. I just sold my '97 SW-2 auto with 129k miles for $2,500.

If everything checks out, I'd snap that up pronto and drive the wheels off of it!

Thanks again for all the input. The wife is on board, but I'm still a bit scared of the unknown.

Do I need any standard tools to work on this thing? I can't even put together a swing set with my current stuff - I only have metric.

A guy at work has 3 of them and his DD has 200,000+ miles on it. He has some performance parts (???) and has made and sold these parts.

JamesMcD wrote: Thanks again for all the input. The wife is on board, but I'm still a bit scared of the unknown. Do I need any standard tools to work on this thing? I can't even put together a swing set with my current stuff - I only have metric.

100% metric. Anything GM designed since about 1980 is metric. The only non-metric thing will be the seat belt threads, since 7/16-20 seems to be the international standard for seat belt fasteners for some reason or another.

The Saturn wagon is quite possibly the best car ever made.... except for the oil burning problem the cars are indestructible. I put 330K hard miles on my 96SW1 and it is still going! The clutch and exhaust are original and although they are getting a bit worn they are still holding up.

At 235K miles I did an in frame rebuild. Pulled the head and pan and yanked the pistons out. I drilled drainage holes behind the oil rings and slapped in a new set of std rings. I replaced the rod bearings and valve guide seals while I had the motor open, however the main bearings are original.

I have hauled so much crap in the Saturn that the original interior was shredded. Picked up a minty leather interior at the pick and pull a few years ago and have totally destroyed that one as well.

I do zero maintenance on the car and haven't changed the oil in a year or two. I really want this car to die. Every part of the car is completely berkeleyed up from abuse that I really need to start over again with a fresh Saturn.

The oil burning issue is the biggest problem. A good Saturn will burn 1 or 2 qts between oil changes. A typical Saturn will burns a lot more. I was up to a qt every few days when I decided to fix the car.

That's my story

So if I start with a young one that doesn't burn oil, should I expect that it will later,even if I take care of it?

They all burn oil. I remember doing the oil consumption test on 30k mile cars.

In the grand scheme of things, this isn't really so bad of a problem. Just check the oil on a regular basis and add as necessary.

I bought my Saturn from my sister. It had 89K miles on it and was religiously maintained. I noticed right away it had a problem when it ran out of oil at 4000 miles.

here are some autopsy pics from when I pulled the engine down.

Edit.. these pictures were taken at 235K miles.

In the 80's as OEM suppliers for the "Big 3" & other manufacturers , whether or not a part was metric was how we knew if they were reusing an old model part for their new ride or if it was designed recently. Dies, parts, virtually anything of a new or even current design was metric. It anything in the whole process was measured in SAE, it was almost certainly a re-purposed older design.

I think the 3800s used standard threads for certain engine fasteners right up to the end... including studs with 5/16 on one end and 8mm on the other.

So, what is the cream of the crop or goldilocks Saturn S-Series? Years to avoid?

We are looking for something to replace our e46 wagon with; these seem to check all of the boxes. Cheap, reliable, available in a wagon and 5MT, easy to maintain, possibly not soul-suckingly dreadful, etc.

Portland CL is pretty much lousy with 98-01 wagons for $2kish.

In reply to Knurled:I'm not surprised. Despite all the feel good hype, they were still a GM product.

I'd check with @carkid1989 for car info...he had a 5 spd S-wagon and tinkered around with it...sold it bit misses it I think...

S-series Saturns are like Miata's. Some are better than others, but they are all good. I sold my 200,000mile '97 last spring and it was a great car. Yes it will use oil, but oil is cheap and you'll be getting awesome gas milage. My twin cam 5-speed coupe got 32 in town and 38 on the frewway at 75mph. The front motor mount is a must do, but its 20 bucks and 5 minutes. You can't go wrong on these cars.

They will all burn oil eventually. A well maintained one won't start until 175k or so. As mentioned above... its the lack of drainback holes in oil-control rings. Once they get gunked up, they kinda make themselves worse and it spirals downhill.

Mine just started around 140k and does almost 1qt between changes (5K miles). I run synthetic with a big filter (SRT4 filter is same interface but a lot longer), and always top off with ATF. I think it would do a bit more if I were harder on it, but this one is pure appliance - automatic and mostly commute driving. It rarely sees more than 4k rpm.

Also of note, our lemons car did 14hrs of racing on a blown headgasket. I'm quite positive that the last few hours of the race the oil pan was only tap water.

Ethnic Food-Wrap Aficionado wrote: So, what is the cream of the crop or goldilocks Saturn S-Series? Years to avoid? We are looking for something to replace our e46 wagon with; these seem to check all of the boxes. Cheap, reliable, available in a wagon and 5MT, easy to maintain, possibly not soul-suckingly dreadful, etc. Portland CL is pretty much lousy with 98-01 wagons for $2kish.

IMO 1995 is THE year to get, you get the better looking, slightly lighter 1st gen chassis, but you get the 2nd gen interior that has luxuries such as a cup holder or two.And also its non OBD. 90-91 are the years to avoid because they were kind of weird bastard childs with E36 M3 that doesnt match any other years and parts you cant find or something. Theres also some weird issues with the single cam ones were a robot was retarded about applying a gasket and it resulted in an intake manifold gasket leak or head gasket or something.