Learning car control

Hi everyone!

Around 10 years back I participated in several autoX and DE events in my then-new ‘07 350z. I absolutely loved it then, but life happened, priorities changed and I eventually stopped going.

I’ve recently been considering re-indulging in DE. The problem is - although I think I learned a lot from the track+autoX days, I didn’t quite develop a ton of consistency, and I didn’t really learn to control the Z at the limit. Quite frankly, it was too new, and had too much power and too much grip. Power masked my poor technique and grip meant the car’s limits were so high that exceeding them would have been very dangerous for a newbie like me (it did happen once in the rain at NHMS and scared the E36 out of me).

10 years on, I’m older, have a family and don’t feel quite as invincible any more. So what’s the best way for me to get some confidence back and to feel comfortable with a car at its limit? I still have the Z, but the power/grip issue still remains, plus I don’t know if the Z is a very friendly car at the limit - I think it bites.

So I’m thinking if I should buy a cheap momentum car (hardtop-miata), slap some not-too-grippy tires on it and go for AutoX/DE/RallyX? It would have to be a street-able car that I can drive to the track - I don’t have the space or budget for a truck and trailer.

Or should I just man up and keep learning on the Z? That would limit the options to AutoX and DE, the car's still too nice to RallyX.

Maybe run the 350z on some cheap, low traction tires? I’ve never had this issue so hard to relate. Maybe go drive some rental karts? Go autocrossing? Get more track time in the Z car and build confidence? Buying another car seems like a waste of money.

Also, you shouldn’t necessarily want to drive your street car / daily driver at the limit on every corner - you want to drive it home, and you don’t want to injure yourself or others. Isn’t NHMS a Roval? Hitting the wall there would be bad. There are just some corners you need to respect - example The Kink at Road America. Risk far outweighs the reward. Lift.

I vote Miata for several reasons: They are cheap, the consumables are cheap, and its an honest car for feedback and learning. What I mean to say is, is that in stock form or nearly stock, it won't bite you but will play nice all day while you learn. If you decide not to do hpde or autox after all, just sell it and get your money back. Hope to see you out there! I'll be at Track Night In America Memphis tomorrow.

I'd start doing some lower-key HPDEs (with intructor) in the car you already own.  Check out SCCA Track Night in America if you live near a track, or even if you don't. You'll get your groove back quick.

If your local SCCA region has a test n tune or autox school, that's a low-stress way to get a lot of time in and there are always folks willing to ride along and give pointers.

I learned quite a bit in a large, empty paved lot when it was raining. Always a great place to take a refresher course.

If you have the money for an entry level car that will probably be more fun and teach you a bunch. Then when you are ready to move up use the Z. As others have said, if you get a Miata and take reasonably good care of it you'll get your money back when you sell. Plus if the Z is your baby it is tough to push it and still have fun. With an expendable car you can wail on it with a smile on your face.  Are you still in the New England area? There are a bunch more tracks since 10 years ago. Palmer, MA, Thompson, CT, Tamworth and Cannan NH if you want to do HPDE stuff. Fair amount of choice for AutoX as well. I tried AX for a season when I first got my car so I could learn how it handled then moved to time trials. I like the longer seat time and speed of track days over the low cost of parking lot racing.

Go to a high-end karting place and practice one hour per week for as long as you can afford. Could end up being like $500, but holy crap do you get seat time and good feedback (times for each lap, and those times get ranked against all their other drivers). Keep a driving feedback app running in your pocket while you drive so you can break down your laps further. And how much hpde does $500 buy you anyway?

The place near me has electric carts and they are really slick. They cut power when you slide, and that really makes you aware of what you are doing. Fastest times come from staying on the edge of slide without sliding.

Also, carts swap ends really fast, when you get back into a big car you will feel like you have all kinds of time for inputs.

Any driving schools near you offer SkidCar training?  That helps sharpen the skills at low speeds in other people's equipment with instructors.

Consistently running rental karts to help focus on smoothness, looking up, slid recovery, etc.

I teach skid recovery for a teen driving course. My best students are those who have ridden dirt bikes or four-wheelers in the dirt. They have developed the seat-of-pants feel for when traction breaks loose and it translates to cars really well.

I learned car control by playing around on gravel roads. Just have to mind the trees and ditches.

Slow speed, slippery conditions are the good beginning point to get to driving near the limit on asphalt. I raced against a lot of people terrified of a wet track and moved up several spots in qualifying just because I wasn't afraid of a little tail step-out.

A longer wheelbase car will give you more time to catch and correct a slide. That would be my only concern using the Miata or Z car. I think the Miata makes up for it with great chassis feedback though. Another choice would be a E30 or E36 BMW.

You need a kart; karts are cheap.

I think you learn car control by trying to figure out how to lower lap times with progressively higher cornering speeds and harder drives out of corners. Actively trying to find "the limit" may be counterproductive, to put  it mildly. Try to sneak up on the limit over time, so you get some little glimpses of it first. It takes an  investment of time and money. Ideally, it is fun and relatively safe as you learn new skills. Good luck.

neckthrough said:

Hi everyone!

Around 10 years back I participated in several autoX and DE events in my then-new ‘07 350z. I absolutely loved it then, but life happened, priorities changed and I eventually stopped going.

I’ve recently been considering re-indulging in DE. The problem is - although I think I learned a lot from the track+autoX days, I didn’t quite develop a ton of consistency, and I didn’t really learn to control the Z at the limit. Quite frankly, it was too new, and had too much power and too much grip. Power masked my poor technique and grip meant the car’s limits were so high that exceeding them would have been very dangerous for a newbie like me (it did happen once in the rain at NHMS and scared the E36 out of me).

10 years on, I’m older, have a family and don’t feel quite as invincible any more. So what’s the best way for me to get some confidence back and to feel comfortable with a car at its limit? I still have the Z, but the power/grip issue still remains, plus I don’t know if the Z is a very friendly car at the limit - I think it bites.

So I’m thinking if I should buy a cheap momentum car (hardtop-miata), slap some not-too-grippy tires on it and go for AutoX/DE/RallyX? It would have to be a street-able car that I can drive to the track - I don’t have the space or budget for a truck and trailer.

Or should I just man up and keep learning on the Z? That would limit the options to AutoX and DE, the car's still too nice to RallyX.

I could write a very similar story to you.  I did a bunch of autox and HPDE in the early 00's.  Half of my autox was done in an '86 MR2, not much power but prone to snap oversteer.  The rest of my autox, and much of my HPDE, was done in a FFR Cobra 427 S/C replica.  Very high power, low weight, short wheelbase, high grip.  It could mask bad habits, but would bite hard if ham fisted.  I never explored true upper limits in HPDE, didn't want to wreck it, but I pushed the limits in autox.  I even tried buying a dedicated track car...or three...but those all ended in failure.  Then life happened, namely kids.  I quickly cut back that stuff until I stopped completely.

Many years later, I was dying to get back behind the wheel.  Like you, I was older and feeling less invincible.  Having kids changes things...at least for me.  I took a bit of a different path than you're thinking about.  I got hooked up with a LeMons team and jumped into that kind of racing.  Wheel to wheel had always been a dream of mine, so I went for it.  But here's my point...even though it's a purpose built race car, I don't push it to the absolute limits.  I'll run at maybe 9/10ths.  I'm pushing more than hard enough to have a great time, but I'll never be the fastest driver on my team.  I'm one of the slower ones, actually.  But I run clean, competitive, consistent laps and enjoy the hell out of it.  Sure, I always want to get faster, but I have a self preservation mechanism that rules all...I need to bring the car home in the condition I took it out, and same goes for my neck. 

So why not jump back into the Z and do autox and HPDE if that's what you want to do?  No reason for a dedicated track car.  You can safely push the Z to the limits and beyond in autox.  For HPDE, nothing wrong with driving at 9/10ths.  Go as fast as you're comfortable with and still bring the car home in one piece.  Set a goal to go .10 seconds faster next time, as long as your comfortable with that speed.  In the end, don't worry how fast you're going...if you're on track and having fun, mission accomplished. 

NHMS is my favorite road course we run on, BTW.  It's a blast!

This seems to be much ado about nothing.  What exactly is the fear in Autox'ing the Z?  As long as the facility is decent and the course designer is following reasonable guidelines, it's a fantastic place to learn car control due to the low risk of damage/injury/death when you do exceed the limits. 

Personally, I don't feel stock 350Z on daily driver summer street tires has enough power or grip to warrant seeking out another  car, unless you simply want a separate dedicated second-toy.  While they're not exactly Miata slow, they're not exactly fast (or furious) either.  Once you start getting comfortable with it at autox, then work your way back into the DE environment.  

Pondering this a little more I have some questions and comments about “the limit” and what it means to you and what you think is appropriate for a non-competitive track day in a street car with minimal safety gear.

This is my perspective based on my experience of participating in AutoX, driver’s ed on road courses, open track days and finally competitive karting. 

Autox- low risk to your person and your car. If your not probing the limits you’re not doing it right. But, it’s easy to go over the limit and take out a cone even if you are still in control of the car - going over the limit does not necessarily mean you are out of control, it means you have gone past the point of max grip and speed and lap time. Also know as over driving the car.

Track days - higher risk because of faster speeds and typically low amounts of safety gear. The higher powered street cars of today also raise the risk factor due to increased speeds. It’s important to know where the limits are but I don’t like to drive the car on or over the limit here often as the risk outweighs the reward. There are no trophies and champagne. Plus, you need to leave a margin of error for your screw ups, other drivers of various skill levels, and possible mechanical malfunctions of your car or others, eg. fluid or debris on track.

Finally, competitive racing - driving the car at the limit during qualifying and as needed through the race. Often you will find your position for the day and no amount of effort will get you closer to the guy in front. Then it’s better to maintain position and save the equipment for another day.

BMW, PCA, and NASA all have HPDE instruction programs built around students driving street-equipped cars.  They teach people good technical skills as well as spin avoidance.  BMW and PCA around here incorporate wet skid pad sessions for all instructed students.  They don't want anybody denting their cars, much less getting hurt God forbid, and they run the program accordingly.

I started out with a 400hp E92 M3.  Pretty quick, I got tired of vintage instructors telling me the nannies on "these newfangled cars" were saving me from my own poor driving skills, so I started bringing the car they learned on (1979 BMW 3-series).  That chassis is merciless and I definitely learned car control and smoothness, out of pure self-preservation.  But other students that started the same time I did using their "newfangled" cars seem to have come through the process about the same speed I have, so it looks like the momentum car is an unnecessary expense and hassle.

I learned more car control in autocross than I do at HPDE because it teaches a lot more of your "fast hands" but once you transition to the track you need to practice "slow hands fast hands" which is all your inputs are smooth and slow except to correct like a slide or something.

If you plan to keep the Z and eventually drive it I think you should practice with it. I also agree what others said about motorcycles particularly dirt bikes teaching good instincts but I don't think it a necessary precursor.

Seat time seat time seat time, nothing else is really going to make the difference, and seat time in the car you have will be best unless its too expensive to risk in which case I would suggest a different car toy anyway

I have done 1 2 day track event with my HPDE Salvage Miata and most of my track days were in FWD and over 15 years ago, along with one last year in a subaru WRX and according to my school report I am generally skilled at the upper level of expectation for intermediate with a few areas I need to work on, point being I think it comes back to you and is more about comfort than it is about capability

Your Z won’t bite. It will oversteer but it’s not that hard to modulate or manage. I had a 370Z nismo and really enjoyed sliding that car around. It’s quite fun when you learn it and are in control. If instead of being careful you embrace it - find a safe place to regularly take it over the limit by getting the rear to drift about (with lots of run off and no hard objects) - you’ll quickly learn how to correct and manage the car. Then if you accidentally overcook it you’ll react intuitively. 

You can always get a Miata but your Z will work really well. Anything in the neighborhood of a 10:1 or higher weight:power ratio won’t be unmanageable.

My Boxster track car likes to rotate and the mid-engine cars let go faster and take quick hands to catch. But I got a lot of practice and big grins with the Z! Good times. 

For DE you might need to refresh your brake fluid, change front brake pad types to a race oriented pad, and depending on the ambient conditions keep an eye on your oil temperature. (If it starts to get hot take a slow cool down lap.) I needed an oil cooler for the Z. And I imagine you already know this but that transmission doesn’t like to be slammed into gear quickly. You’ll have a lot of fun.