Duke wrote:Toyman01 wrote: As someone who drives a fair amount at night, I'd like to see cheap Ebay retrofit HIDs in reflector style headlights banned. They throw entirely too much light down the road and many systems seem to do so indiscriminately.That's the real problem, not HIDs themselves.
FTFY 
Tyler H wrote: The self-leveling HIDs in my BMW are very good. Fresh housings (because the ZKW housings burn reflectors over time,) correct bulbs, and calibration yields a razor sharp vertical cutoff. The cutoff falls just below the side mirrors and rear window when following other motorists. The BMW is pretty spartan on cluster lighting, a proper hue for night driving (redish,) and I keep it fairly dim. Great setup for night visibility. But people HATE HIDs. I get flashed almost every time I drive, particularly in the country where traffic is sparse. People don't like the white light, never mind that they are completely above the HID cutoff whereas they would be flooded with warm yellow scatter from my GMC truck at a much farther distance. I usually resist the urge to blast them back and I'm a fairly considerate person so that bugs me about HIDs.
You know why you're getting flashed? Because you're blinding people.
If your cutoff is just below the side mirrors and rear window when you're following someone, that means your headlights are aimed up. The cutoff should never be above the level of the headlights, it should drop about 2" every 25'. If it's on a slight upward angle, it'll get higher and higher with distance so that anyone approaching you is getting an eyeball full of unaimed lumens.
When you're following someone, the cutoff should be closer to the midpoint of the trunk or just above the back bumper.
Tyler H. You are correct chump car races at night are horrible. Especially the guys with six led light bars all pointed at mirror level.
I retrofitted d2s projectors from the retrofit source in our Accord and that's all we need. I put a light bar on the car for sebring and my pops but I'll turn it off if there's a car in front of me. I've contemplated throwing a light bar on the trunk to blast at the shiny happy people who try to mimic the sun. But I too care about the safety of others and don't really feel like having to throw fisticuffs in the pits
Keith Tanner wrote:fidelity101 wrote: and to Keith's point of color temperature - that is a fact. HIDs work better than LEDs because of their color temperature and your perception of that color. It basically spikes each of the RGB values soo high through the roof that each color that makes up the entire beam is with such intensity that your brain thinks it must be white. With LEDs you have a much colder color temperature which is to your brain makes it appear brighter - it just plays with your sensation/perception. for example, if you put a 5000 lumen halogen lamp next to a 5000 lumen LED lamp they both are equal in light output but your brain will think that the LED is actually brighter.Given those two 5000 lumen lamps, do you actually see better with the LED or the HID? Does that perception of brighter light with the LED mean you can see more, or is it a wash? The usual comment I get from the LEDs in my Miata (7" round GE Nighthawks) is "they're not as bright as I expected, but I can see everything". The big Hellas on the tow rig get "good lord". And I like the sharp European style cutoff, I run European lights in a lot of my cars for that purpose.
HID may percieve better just because the color temperature is so extreme but I think after a certain value your brain kind of washes it out any more intensity of that color doesn't matter because the braind essentially doesn't processes it above those values.
The Euro lights run VOL while we run VOR pattern (or I've mixed them up again) basically it describes the sharpness and rise of the angle of cut off line. If you want to go full stupid... find yourself a euro spec LH lamp for RH traffic and make the other handed lamp opposite traffic so you have both of the cut off lines that are higher. However you will find that people will flash their brights at you for oncomming traffic. The cut off line is there to prevent this but if you mix up your LH traffic and right hand traffic you get max lumen output essentially.
illegal but you will have supreme visibility.
rslifkin wrote: Color rendering index matters too when it comes to those dark, rainy nights. Halogens do very well in this respect. LEDs can vary quite a bit and HIDs are almost always worse than halogen. Low CRI leads to things being closer to monochrome (like what happens with old sodium vapor street / parking lot lights). Higher CRI shows colors better, which makes it easier to see the brown deer standing next to the darker brown tree, especially when there's not a massive amount of light available.
I had this issue in my mazda 6 I retrofitted the headlamp with 1000lumen bi function LED units from the new lexus RX and the glare from the wet road was awful, I kept my fogs halogen for that reason because they really helped. For OEMs they hate doing this (except for FCA for some reason, IE Jeep cherokee) where they 4 different light colors on the front of the vehicle. DRL is lED, LB/HB is HID and fog is halogen... the color harmony is bad and a lot of customer complain about it. some of that is budget and styling though.
curtis73 wrote:Driven5 wrote: Aparently IIHS has just started evaluating headlight effectiveness this past year.This. The testing and regulation regarding headlights hasn't been updated in forever, and prior to the mid 80s, most vehicles used some combination of the same four bulbs; small round quads, large round doubles, and the same two possibilities in square. Now that headlights are so widely variable, the testing requirements haven't kept up with the changes.
correct, but they have followed in Europe and China and Japan and basically everywhere but here....
:(
ADB systems are driving with your high beams on at all times, as cars approach the sensors send signals to the lamp ecu and dims/turns off the appropriate LED that puts that position of light down the road. This is SLOWLY being introduced, don't expect it to be legal until 2021 or 2022 model year cars though if were lucky - you know how fast government moves...
Duke wrote:SyntheticBlinkerFluid wrote: I don't know, Dodge could put Subaru to shame with their everything they've made in the last 20 yearsI actually like Mopars, but I have never driven a modern one that didn't make me feel like Mr. Magoo. The only exception is our '12 T&C, which has the HID projectors. They're good, but frankly, no better than the ones in our '04 TSX, despite 8 more years of available development time.
a projector from 04 or 08 or hell even 94 is roughly the same concept, you just change the lens shape for styling purposes but there are a few variants but the optical concept is generally the same:
LanEvo wrote: The last two new cars I bought were a 2003 Lancer Evo VIII and a 2010 BMW 335xi. Both Came with HID lights from the factory that were pretty impressive. The Evo VIII had razor-sharp cutoff and no hot spots. Perfect. The BMW (believe it or not) isn't as good. I kind of thought all new cars would have HID lights by now.
HIDs are being phased out because they are too costly and draw too much energy, we need to save those amps for your 15 way power seat! the ballast is expensive and LED technology has come down in cost and is being used in higher volumes so for better packaging space/thermal concerns for the same cost or cheaper that uses less power is reduced c02 and improve MPGs, its win win win.
car39 wrote: My wife's Volvo C30 came with the optional "turning" headlights, the lights physically move with the steering wheel. Very nice setup, much better than my S60.
these are the bee's knees.. of the old day. Now we can perform that same function with no moving parts, just turning on LEDs that aim at different reflectors.
snailmont5oh wrote: I sometimes wonder what the fascination is with such a sharp cutoff. I would rather see (on low beam) some very bright and useful light low, with tons of side spill, with a dimmer area somewhat above where the "cutoff" is. Enough light to see a little bit of stuff, but still manageable for oncoming traffic. People think that oncoming traffic should have "no glare", but c'mon, glare is a part of life, and a little won't kill you. But then, I also use oncoming vehicles' lights to make sure that there's nothing between us.
The sharp cut off line is AMAZING for the snow storms. A night and day different to say the least.
java230 wrote: Projector in a halogen bowl.
projectors can be halogen or led or HID, its just the optical concept of accumulating light from the light source and sending it through a condensing lens which is what you see from the outside.
If you guys want to make our own budget lightbar go to the junkyard, smash some headlamps and buy the projectors on the cheap. disassemble them, remove the shutter or mirror that makes the cut off line now you have 360* of light through that lens, it will scatter light everywhere and cause glare but if you're offroad racing it won't matter, MAS LIGHT PORFAVOR! Then just mount them to a square tube and call it good.
Thanks for the insider info! Interesting stuff.
I drove home last night in the ND Miata in a fairly thick snowstorm. High beam was useless, of course. Low beams had a really nice sharp cutoff, so it worked well. I like the lights in that car. They're even autoleveling, which is actually a problem if you lower the car without doing something to correct it.
In reply to Keith Tanner:
No problem! I've learned a lot about something I never really had any interest in over the past few years. The science involved is fascinating but the politics associated with it are cumbersome...
Yeah your high beams just put a big glare spot in the snow because its trying to send light through a E36 M3 ton of small objects and refracts/reflects back at you.
when you reach a certain lumen value you are required to have auto leveling as to not blind people, you usually find a sensor on a front or rear control arm so as the suspension moves it sends a signal to the stepper motor within the headlamp to maintain the legal aim.
1000 lumen (per lamp) require a washing system to prevent glare, European spec is more stringent than SAE for these values so that is why this is a popular spec for euro cars.
fun fact with the matrix beam/ADB is a way around the laws, in reality you want maximum light but you can't go around blinding people, thats why we have low beam and high beams but this basically allows you to drive with highbeams on all the time without blinding anyone.
other fun fact, laser headlamps are only for high beam function and essentially double your lumen penetration. IE a std high beam has peak 1 Lux value at 320m but with laser that same intensity is at 720m
fidelity101 wrote: when you reach a certain lumen value you are required to have auto leveling as to not blind people, you usually find a sensor on a front or rear control arm so as the suspension moves it sends a signal to the stepper motor within the headlamp to maintain the legal aim. 1000 lumen (per lamp) require a washing system to prevent glare, European spec is more stringent than SAE for these values so that is why this is a popular spec for euro cars.
Interestingly, a lot of Euro cars have manual leveling even if they don't require auto leveling. And a few US models do as well (mid-late 2000s Toyota Solaras with HIDs have a manual leveling adjustment). I've contemplated retrofitting the manual leveling system from the Euro version of my Jeep, but gave up on the idea when I realized the amount of work involved.
As far as headlight washers, I'm curious: how much do the squirter-only types do to reduce glare? These seem to be common, but they don't really prevent a glare-causing dirt film from building up. The wiper types do, however.
In reply to rslifkin:
yeah the STI and the saabarus have the manual leveling. I think that is a gray area in the laws or just a nice feature. Not too sure on that one.
All they do is help maintain the existing light output as designed to the lamp, if you have dirt on there now the lamp doesn't perform as intended. All the bits of dirt and mud reflect and refract light so if you have a bright light source this tends to scatter light where you don't want it. Squirter and wiper is best but again I think this is a vague requirement.
The HIDs in my 9-5 are awesome. The Halogen projectors in my wife's R class are less so with the low beams on but just about as good with the hi beams on.
As noted, the ND Miata has the leveling system. Interestingly, only some of the Fiat 124s do. Come to think of it, the ND Sport might not. Anyhow, it's obviously there by choice and not from regulation. It's attached to one rear control arm.
It brings an interesting problem. If you lower the car, the system thinks the rear of the car is sitting low so it brings the headlights down. Then you end up with really poor visibility. I noticed it on my first drive and figured out the car had a leveler. A surprising number of people never noticed. We now sell an adjustable link so you can adjust the leveling system with a ride height change.
In general, I like the lights on my 2015 Outback better than any other car I have had. The fog lights are just that, very good in fog and showing stuff on the side of the road for a short distance. The low beams have a sharp cut off and are good for most of the driving I do.
The high beams throw a lot of light down the road but it is very center concentrated which can be a problem for me. Most of my night time driving is on back country roads with lots of critters in the fields along the road. The high beam pattern doesn't show much off to the side of the road.
So I added two Rigid Industries D2 driving pattern lights mounted low on the brush guard. They fall in between the high and low beams with a 1 Lux output at 155 yards with a fairly wide spread. I mounted them so that the cut off is even with the low beams at 100' and they are turned slightly to the outside.
I usually run the low beams and the D2's on the back roads at night as this gives me good lighting 150 yards down the road and about 25 yards off to each side.
The best lights I have ever had, as mentioned above, are on my S2000. After that the ones on my European 1985 MB 500SEL, they were excellent.
I had a buddy in town for business, instead of a rental he rented my s2000 for the week. The first thing he said "dude the headlights on this are fing amazing." He's got a 16 wrx.
Lots of great info in this thread. Great to hear from an insider.
As a note, I always like to shop cars at night not only for this reason but sales and finance people tend to do whatever it takes to make a deal happen faster do they can get home.
I hate plug and play hid kits. But I don't think they should be banned. They can be useful for off-road applications and show cars. A proper retrofit is the best thing to do. I'll spend the extra cash on an extra set of headlights on a car to build a retrofit to my liking and sometimes it makes the car look better too.
I've noticed on many of the cars I've owned/ driven that the headlights are aimed way too low from the factory. It's like they're set up to not blind people at max GVWR when the rear of your car is sagging low and the front is pointing up. I have found some benefit on pretty much every car (including my S2000) of adjusting the head light low beams to be pretty much horizontal or slightly less. I don't drive brodozers so my lights aren't five feet off the ground and constantly blinding everybody either.
I will say that driving our lowered MGB at night is hell on your eyes because you basically sit below the headlight cutoff of everything else on the road.
What are the hive's thoughts on color temperature? My '96 F-150 has Wagner Night Defense bulbs that are very yellow, and I think that they're pretty good, especially in rainy or foggy situations.
freetors wrote: I've noticed on many of the cars I've owned/ driven that the headlights are aimed way too low from the factory. It's like they're set up to not blind people at max GVWR when the rear of your car is sagging low and the front is pointing up. I have found some benefit on pretty much every car (including my S2000) of adjusting the head light low beams to be pretty much horizontal or slightly less. I don't drive brodozers so my lights aren't five feet off the ground and constantly blinding everybody either. I will say that driving our lowered MGB at night is hell on your eyes because you basically sit below the headlight cutoff of everything else on the road.
I had that problem with my old Tiburon. The stock projectors when it rolled off of the dealer lot were aimed almost straight down. That night, I could not see a thing.
As for blinding people, when I roll up being a car at a red light, I always douse the headlights on the rover. I always hated being blinded by trucks and SUVs and refuse to do it to others. No idea if this is legal or not, but as soon as I begin rolling, I put them back on
snailmont5oh wrote: What are the hive's thoughts on color temperature? My '96 F-150 has Wagner Night Defense bulbs that are very yellow, and I think that they're pretty good, especially in rainy or foggy situations.
A lighter yellow will be easier on the eyes, and reflect less in adverse conditions. The reds penetrate more than the blues. Blues look brighter to the eye, hence they may not look bright, but appear to work well in adverse conditions
java230 wrote:snailmont5oh wrote: What are the hive's thoughts on color temperature? My '96 F-150 has Wagner Night Defense bulbs that are very yellow, and I think that they're pretty good, especially in rainy or foggy situations.A lighter yellow will be easier on the eyes, and reflect less in adverse conditions. The reds penetrate more than the blues. Blues look brighter to the eye, hence they may not look bright, but appear to work well in adverse conditions
But aren't the blues more likely to scatter, and therefore less likely to reach a target and reflect back?
My view of bluer headlights is that "they look brighter than they see."
Hal wrote: In general, I like the lights on my 2015 Outback better than any other car I have had. The fog lights are just that, very good in fog and showing stuff on the side of the road for a short distance. The low beams have a sharp cut off and are good for most of the driving I do. The high beams throw a lot of light down the road but it is very center concentrated which can be a problem for me. Most of my night time driving is on back country roads with lots of critters in the fields along the road. The high beam pattern doesn't show much off to the side of the road. So I added two Rigid Industries D2 driving pattern lights mounted low on the brush guard. They fall in between the high and low beams with a 1 Lux output at 155 yards with a fairly wide spread. I mounted them so that the cut off is even with the low beams at 100' and they are turned slightly to the outside. I usually run the low beams and the D2's on the back roads at night as this gives me good lighting 150 yards down the road and about 25 yards off to each side.
In reply to freetors:
Ideal aim for low beams is to have the cutoff slope down slightly. Generally, 2 - 3 inches down at 25 feet away is about right. The lower the headlights are mounted, the less they need to slope down.
Colorado folks: slightly off topic, but how do you keep the lenses of your lights from accumulating the crud of dirt and snow they spread all over the roads here? My 540 has factory HID (retrofitted with bi-xenon) but too old to have met the headlight washer requirements. It's fine as long as the snow is dry and packed, but the second I get on the highway the light output is basically nil 
sobe_death wrote: Colorado folks: slightly off topic, but how do you keep the lenses of your lights from accumulating the crud of dirt and snow they spread all over the roads here? My 540 has factory HID (retrofitted with bi-xenon) but too old to have met the headlight washer requirements. It's fine as long as the snow is dry and packed, but the second I get on the highway the light output is basically nil
There's not much you can do about the dirt / grime without headlight washers. Snow should melt off, although some HID or LED lights have issues with not throwing enough heat to melt the snow / slush off the lights. Halogens almost always get hot enough to melt clear, even in very cold weather.
sobe_death wrote: Colorado folks: slightly off topic, but how do you keep the lenses of your lights from accumulating the crud of dirt and snow they spread all over the roads here?
With my Quantum I had to stop every couple miles to clear the slush off of the headlights.
That is why I was thrilled that my next (current) car was equipped with these:
I wish more cars had them.
Easy: every time you stop for gas and clean your windshield, give your lights a swipe. If you're really being hard on the windshield squirters, pull over and grab a handful of snow.
It's also a good motivation not to follow too close 
In reply to Keith Tanner:
I know, but I HATE stopping once I'm on I-70. The weekend warrior traffic here is such that 'following too close' just means there isn't room for another car to squeeze in. I imagine that waxing the headlight lenses might work for, oh, 30 minutes?
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