xFactor wrote: Right now I'm doing a lsx 454 in a '57 Bel Air and stripping down a Land Rover Defender 90 for the same swap. Totally boring... later, matt
Do you have a build thread for the Bel Air? That sounds like fun.
xFactor wrote: Right now I'm doing a lsx 454 in a '57 Bel Air and stripping down a Land Rover Defender 90 for the same swap. Totally boring... later, matt
Do you have a build thread for the Bel Air? That sounds like fun.
In reply to novaderrik:
I have done my homework on this, that's why it bothers me. The Super T-10, Muncie, and T-5 WC were all transmissions I looked into and you're looking to spend significant amounts of money on any of those even in well-worn condition.
Remember how Vorschlag has had all kinds of transmission problems at the $2010/2012 challenges? It's because they couldn't get a robust enough transmission bolted up to an LSx for a reasonable price.
My plans to (eventually) swap an LS7 into my C5 Z06 are boring. :( Nevermind, by the time that happens, we won't have gas anymore.
92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: I also like boost. And the howl of a smaller motor. Once it gets above 4.0 litres, i'm not really interested any more. Oh, and i like LOTS of boost. LOTS of boost in an LS = power that doesn't belong on the street.
You know the renegadehybrids porsche 996 c4 swap? Do you also remember that conversation we had about the 8000rpm 4.8L? Do you see where I am going with this?
8000rpm SBC in an awd corvette = NOT played out 
If everything works out, 2013 it'll happen for me. I figure it'll be the perfect DD for Alberta winters!
Appleseed wrote:bravenrace wrote: In reply to Javelin: Not only are they boring, but I'm getting really tired of every so called hot rod having a stock late model engine in it, whether an LS, Coyote or Hemi. Yeah, they're all great engines. And boring.Sounds like the flathead guys from the fifties.
Not really. I have just always liked to be different. I generally don't like things that are overdone. Plus, putting a stock engine in a car isn't Hot Rodding in my mind, no matter how good it is. But engines are my thing. I can see others looking at it differently. I AM somewhat surprised that so many people on this board are into these engines. In most other cases, people here seem to like things that are odd, different, or unusual, like I do. The LS doesn't fit in that catagory. I'll tell you this. I have a '77 Chevy C-20 that I'm restoring. It has it's original engine, a 454. Everyone keeps telling me to put an LS in it. That's not gonna happen. I may do something different than the 454, or I may use the 454, but in any case it won't be an LS.
So, a 1972 MGB GT with an LS1 isn't unusual or different? There's only one other running LS-powered MGB in existence that I know of and it's a convertible. How much more unusual do you need?
Would my LS-powered rally Miata be more interesting if it were running a flathead or a slant six? No, because it would be less competitive. It wouldn't be a race car anymore, it would just be performance art. Instead, it's unusual and different because there isn't anything else like it.
Seems to me that putting a big engine in a little car is hot rodding, no matter if the engine is stock or not. It might not be Hot Rodding (tm) as in the magazine, where the focus is more on aesthetics and trends than full-on performance, but it's hot rodding.
Some like to be different for the sake of being different. Some like being effective and competitive. If you can do that by thinking a bit differently, awesome. But why handicap your car just to be different?
Keith wrote: So, a 1972 MGB GT with an LS1 isn't unusual or different? There's only one other running LS-powered MGB in existence that I know of and it's a convertible. How much more unusual do you need? Would my LS-powered rally Miata be more interesting if it were running a flathead or a slant six? No, because it would be less competitive. It wouldn't be a race car anymore, it would just be performance art. Instead, it's unusual and different because there isn't anything else like it. Seems to me that putting a big engine in a little car is hot rodding, no matter if the engine is stock or not. It might not be Hot Rodding (tm) as in the magazine, where the focus is more on aesthetics and trends than full-on performance, but it's hot rodding. Some like to be different for the sake of being different. Some like being effective and competitive. If you can do that by thinking a bit differently, awesome. But why handicap your car just to be different?
You should know, your MG is actually quite the inspiration. I'm just waiting for an aluminum block truck engine to show up in a local yard.
Keith wrote: So, a 1972 MGB GT with an LS1 isn't unusual or different? There's only one other running LS-powered MGB in existence that I know of and it's a convertible. How much more unusual do you need? Would my LS-powered rally Miata be more interesting if it were running a flathead or a slant six? No, because it would be less competitive. It wouldn't be a race car anymore, it would just be performance art. Instead, it's unusual and different because there isn't anything else like it. Seems to me that putting a big engine in a little car is hot rodding, no matter if the engine is stock or not. It might not be Hot Rodding (tm) as in the magazine, where the focus is more on aesthetics and trends than full-on performance, but it's hot rodding. Some like to be different for the sake of being different. Some like being effective and competitive. If you can do that by thinking a bit differently, awesome. But why handicap your car just to be different?
Did you miss the "I can see others looking at it differently. " in my post?
Your MG is not boring. What is boring is that it appears as though everyone is putting an LS into everything. Hot Rod Magazine, for instance. I can't open it lately without seeing multiple LS swaps into old cars. It's getting old. I agree with the functional benefits, if they exist in a particular application, but it strikes me as the easy way out. I've done a lot of engine swaps over the years, and they aren't nearly as challenging as getting the last little bit of power out of whatever engine I'm working on.
And LS engines are FUGLY. And are so small they look stupid in a '55 Chevy, or any other car larger than a Miata. Personally, I'd be much more interested in a Miata engine that has the same power as a stock LS than I am in an LS swap into a Miata. That's just me. Would my 2500M be more interesting with an LS swap or twin turbo's on the factory six? I think the latter. You may feel different and that's fine with me.
It all kind of comes down to goals. Do you want ultimate performance for the dollar? Do you want something weird? How much power do you want/need? How big an engine bay is available? What sort of drivetrain do you need? This, for example, is ridiculous:
The LS1 is definitely a better engine for big power than a 4g63, but it has the drawback of not mating up with one of the world's finest AWD systems. This guy, effectively, made a too twitchy Camaro with crappy aerodynamics crossed with an Evo that can't turn.
But on the other hand, this is a great way to salvage a burnt up 911 turbo.
Just my opinion, but I think the bang for the buck champs are:
Keith wrote: Would my LS-powered rally Miata be more interesting if it were running a flathead or a slant six?
No, but honestly it was way, way cooler with the Miata engine.
Really?
Haven ridden in the Targa Miata.... i'm not sure what i think anymore.
I do know that LS swaps are boring to me. As the swap itself.
However, i can't deny that the Targa car was a special sort of insane, and i liked it.
Keith wrote: So, a 1972 MGB GT with an LS1 isn't unusual or different? There's only one other running LS-powered MGB in existence that I know of and it's a convertible. How much more unusual do you need?
Unusual and different in that it has an LS, perhaps. But it still falls into the "Just another LS swap". Category in my mind.
Would my LS-powered rally Miata be more interesting if it were running a flathead or a slant six? No, because it would be less competitive. It wouldn't be a race car anymore, it would just be performance art. Instead, it's unusual and different because there isn't anything else like it.
Would it be more interesting? Yes, it would. Regardless of how competitive it would be, people would think it was completely and utterly insanely cool. The fact that you built a very competitive Targa Rally Open Class Miata is what makes that car utterly insanely cool (note the missing completely). The fact that it is an LS swap to me, is just ignored. To me, it would be just as cool being an SBC or SBF.
Personally I think something of a communication mistake is occuring here:
No one is saying that a car with an LS swapped engine is going to be boring in the driving aspect.
People are saying that the concept of the LS engine itself is boring. As in, "Oh, it's just another LS swap". There's no longer any excitement, no questions to ask.
To me, it is the same as any hot rod back 10 years ago, Someone says their car has a 350, 355, 383 in it, you shrug your shoulders. It's not exciting, because it is so common place. You don't have to ask how it works, you already know it does. It is boring in the concept sense.
You say it has an Olds 350 however, and you raise eyebrows.
DaewooOfDeath wrote: Really?
double that
ScottRA21 wrote:Keith wrote: So, a 1972 MGB GT with an LS1 isn't unusual or different? There's only one other running LS-powered MGB in existence that I know of and it's a convertible. How much more unusual do you need?Unusual and different in that it has an LS, perhaps. But it still falls into the "Just another LS swap". Category in my mind.Would my LS-powered rally Miata be more interesting if it were running a flathead or a slant six? No, because it would be less competitive. It wouldn't be a race car anymore, it would just be performance art. Instead, it's unusual and different because there isn't anything else like it.Would it be more interesting? Yes, it would. Regardless of how competitive it would be, people would think it was completely and utterly insanely cool. The fact that you built a very competitive Targa Rally Open Class Miata is what makes that car utterly insanely cool (note the missing completely). The fact that it is an LS swap to me, is just ignored. To me, it would be just as cool being an SBC or SBF. Personally I think something of a communication mistake is occuring here: No one is saying that a car with an LS swapped engine is going to be boring in the driving aspect. People are saying that the concept of the LS engine itself is boring. As in, "Oh, it's just another LS swap". There's no longer any excitement, no questions to ask. To me, it is the same as any hot rod back 10 years ago, Someone says their car has a 350, 355, 383 in it, you shrug your shoulders. It's not exciting, because it is so common place. You don't have to ask how it works, you already know it does. It is boring in the concept sense. You say it has an Olds 350 however, and you raise eyebrows.
Double that.
I think one of the rwd turbo volvo mills thrown in an e30 would be cool and different.
The LS-powered MG is the unusual choice. The easy version is a 302, a Rover engine or a GM V6. Those have been done over and over and over again in the MG world for nearly 40 years. So the LS is the oddball option in this case - if you're an MG enthusiast.
It was actually the packaging of the LS engine that made me change my mind from a 302 in that car. They're a thing of beauty if you look at them from a functional standpoint. Everything is packaged in so well, it's all tucked in. There aren't any weird protrusions like distributors or water pumps. That much power in that small a package is amazing. I don't see how that size is a downside, to me it's a major plus. It's true that the intake manifold is more plastic than a cast aluminum unit - but you can get cast aluminum units. Heck, even just painting it silver can do quite a bit to make it look less like plastic.
I know that some people like the idea of the Targa Miata with the old engine. And it was a lot of fun to drive that way. But the reality is that the current setup with the ugly, weirdly small, predictable LS motor is such an awesome car that it kinda blows the idea out of the water. And the non-Miata guys think it's cooler with the V8. If I had an Olds 350 in it, it wouldn't work as well. So it would just be a curiosity instead of a competitive car.
So, in my small experience, if you're an MG guy, then LS swaps are unusual and cool. If you're not, they're commonplace.
If you're a Miata guy, then LS swaps are boring. But if you're not, they're unusual and cool. 
When I read Hot Rod and I see someone who's stuffed a Jaguar V12 into some rusty crusty truck and fitted it with old mechanical fuel injection, I see someone who's trying too hard. If I see a 911 with an LS rammed up the butt, I see a pretty cool solution to expensive Porsche motors.
Having spent a lot of time at both Miata events and general events with turbocharged, supercharged and V8 Miatas, I can tell you that the general enthusiast population is not jaded at all about LS swaps. Not in little cars, anyhow. Not everyone likes forced induction four cylinders, but you never have to explain the concept of an LS-powered Miata. Still, if you prefer your horsepower to come from high pressure air, the most powerful Miata we've ever had on our dyno sports a Miata block with our stroker kit and our FM IIR turbo snorting E85. We'll sell you all the parts to build one or build it for you if you'd like...
MG Bryan wrote: So, yeah, everyone's done it, but you can say the same for sex
except for tim tebow.
boosted inline 6's are indeed awesome, and i wish to make that happen next. i am not doing an LS swap in either of my trucks.
patgizz wrote:MG Bryan wrote: So, yeah, everyone's done it, but you can say the same for sexexcept for tim tebow.
HAHAHAHAHA. That made my day.
I say do whatever you want. I would swap an LSx engine into a vehicle if it was a good fit for what I was trying to do. Then again I still like the satin black paint job.
In reply to Keith:
I think the problem here is that there are a million ways of looking at this. I don't disagree with anything you've said. But there's a difference between putting a 350 Olds into a Miata and putting one into a Model A Pickup. I actually did this swap - kind of. What I did was put a 455 Olds with a Toronado transaxle into a Model A Pickup. In the back. With the headers turned up like in a boat. See how that's different than putting it in a Miata? If someone built that same truck now, I'd be more interested in it with the Olds than with an LS. But the Olds would suck in a Miata, just like the 350 Chevy sucked in my '77 Vega years ago. An LS in a clean Vega now would be pretty cool. It just depends on the application, and some of the applications have run their course, IMO. I have no desire to see another LS equipped first gen Camaro, Chevelle, etc... I contemplated doing an LS swap into my TVR. But if I do any swap it's going to be a SBF, because for a variety of reasons it's a better "fit". But my friend has one that has a highly modified TR-6 engine in it. He's got about $15000 into the engine to make 300hp. Practical? No. Logical? No. But the cool factor, especially when you hear what he did to the engine, so far exceeds an LS in anything, well, hopefully you get the idea. Engine swaps, LS or not, can be good, great, or horrible. While they make sense in a lot of cases, in many they either don't or they've been overdone.
I am starting an LS1 swap into my 1st gen RX-7 so I might be a bit biased.
The original motor was pulled at 200,000 and I had it rebuilt and streetported. Something external went throught it and killed it about 15,000 miles later. Put in another streetported motor with new rotor housings, RX-8 rotors etc. Was megasquirted and put out 160rwhp. I had roughly $4k in that motor setup. It was awesome to drive spiritedly but was a pain around town.
For $2500 I bought a 83,000 miles LS1/T56 combo and pulled it out of the car myself. I have sold about $500 worth of stuff of the car so far and probably have another couple hundred to recoup. I bought a brand new LS6 cam and springs for $108 shipped and a set of 5k mile Z06 heads for $620 shipped (Also came with springs that I can resell for $75). Another $300 for an LS6 intake and I will be at 405 hp (370ish rwhp). I bought a set of motor mounts for $140shipped. I am figuring another $500-$800 for the driveshaft, oil pump, clutch and misc things.
In the end I'll be around $4k again in this motor. I sold off the build 13B for a little over $2k. I will be around $2k out of pocket and have a ton more unstressed hp & tq plus get better gas mileage. It will still rev to 7k with the LS6 setup to boot.
As far as I know there are only a couple other running LS1 1st gens and a couple more in the works. It will be different. The other option was turboing the 13b but it would become even more fragile. After running our 5.0 Lemons RX-7 I knew I wanted a V8 in my car.
I still think LSX swaps are cool but then again weird swaps that don't make sense do nothing for me. A function over form thing for me. Different strokes and all...
I have a feeling this is going to end up like those Pipes on Star Trek: TOS. Goes nowhere, does nothing.
Greg Voth wrote: A function over form thing for me.
bingo
Fine. If LS swaps are boring, swap a Honda F22 engine into a Corvette. Just to be different.
Or an RB26DETT into a classic Mustang!
Oh, wait...
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