Medium Budget Turbo 6.0L Build

SkinnyG (Forum Supporter) said:

Yeah, but with an Ethanol sensor and an ECU that can use it, the ECU can adjust spark timing based on the amount of E going through it.  If it's 15%, conservative tune, if it's 85%, full tilt boogie, and everything in-between.

And if you're going boost, you really should have an ECU you can tune.

I have a pair of brand new turbo's a V12 plus a  New mega squirt.  I can swap the analog sensors over to junkyard digetals  easily enough. But can't wrap my mind around how it knows to fire 12 cylinders?   

frenchyd said:

SkinnyG (Forum Supporter) said:

Yeah, but with an Ethanol sensor and an ECU that can use it, the ECU can adjust spark timing based on the amount of E going through it.  If it's 15%, conservative tune, if it's 85%, full tilt boogie, and everything in-between.

And if you're going boost, you really should have an ECU you can tune.

I have a pair of brand new turbo's a V12 plus a  New mega squirt.  I can swap the analog sensors over to junkyard digetals  easily enough. But can't wrap my mind around how it knows to fire 12 cylinders?   

You're over thinking it. The machine is not sentient. All it does is math? It sees values x y and z and grounds a series of circuits accordingly for the amount of time that x y and z equals to. 
All flex fuel sensor is doing is adding one additional variable. 

Bringing this back up as I'm getting close to going turbo shopping. Will be getting something from VS Racing as a friend is going to hook me up. I was originally planning a single turbo but considering twins now - I like the look and the plumbing seems like it would be easier. Thoughts? 
 

In reply to Racingsnake :

Twins look cool and pre turbo/hot side piping could be a little easier.

Single will make all the power you want, have less charge piping, one less oil drain and feed, and be less expensive. 

Racingsnake said:

In reply to obsolete :

My motor is 2017 so it's a gen IV. Not looking for 4 digit hp so I think it should be ok

Do you have a good idea of how many miles the engine has on it?    Rough guide you can get away without tearing the engine apart if you have near 100,000 miles of wear on the piston rings.  Much below that you risk overheating the rings causing them to expand enough to pop off the top ring lands on the pistons.  
    A rough guideline is piston ring gaps need to open up twice stock in order to survive a pass down the track.   More for road racing where you are hard on the throttle for 20-40 minutes at a time.  

1SlowVW said:

frenchyd said:

SkinnyG (Forum Supporter) said:

Yeah, but with an Ethanol sensor and an ECU that can use it, the ECU can adjust spark timing based on the amount of E going through it.  If it's 15%, conservative tune, if it's 85%, full tilt boogie, and everything in-between.

And if you're going boost, you really should have an ECU you can tune.

I have a pair of brand new turbo's a V12 plus a  New mega squirt.  I can swap the analog sensors over to junkyard digetals  easily enough. But can't wrap my mind around how it knows to fire 12 cylinders?   

You're over thinking it. The machine is not sentient. All it does is math? It sees values x y and z and grounds a series of circuits accordingly for the amount of time that x y and z equals to. 
All flex fuel sensor is doing is adding one additional variable. 

Thanks for explaining it so I can understand. I know a V12 is batch fired but I thought somehow it had to "know" where to send the fuel and when.  Once you explained it, it made sense.  
 Sorry for Hi Jacking the thread.  Please return to your regular subject. 

Frenchy my services can be paid for and I can explain all this to you at length over the phone  your v12 is only two inline 6's that are really close together

All the flex sensor will do is tell the ecu to trim fuel based on temp and E content. Depending on the system its two point programmable or a curve or a complex blend of maps. Fueling is usually linear, timing isn't. Luckily the timing error isn't in the direction of destruction for blends between E0 and E98.

Thanks for your offer Paul. Its's not how I've learned in the past but recognize times change. 
     I likely will be taking advantage of your services as I get things running and make all the dumb mistakes needed to begin to understand the things I don't  know but thought I did. 
     
      

Racingsnake said:

Bringing this back up as I'm getting close to going turbo shopping. Will be getting something from VS Racing as a friend is going to hook me up. I was originally planning a single turbo but considering twins now - I like the look and the plumbing seems like it would be easier. Thoughts? 
 

 

My one experiance with turbo's was using a pair  of used tiny T2's ( from Saabs) and the air temp after the turbo's never got over 120 degrees but all I made was about 5&1/2 psi.  So I could run without intercooler. 
  Since you'll be trying to get double your horsepower  get the right size for the engine.  Two smaller turbo's don't need to spin as fast as one bigger turbo does. The faster the turbo spins the more boost that is made. The hotter the air going into the intake will be.   
      At some point you will have to use intercoolers.  But realize you can't get something for nothing.  Pushing that air through a intercooler will cost you pressure.  Yes it will cool it, but you have to go even bigger to offset the loss of increased travel.  The bigger you go the more lag you get.  
    I fully believe in the KISS  principle. Keep It Smal &Simple 

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:

Also, E85 pump doesn't mean that it's E85.  It's "up to" 85%.

Around here we get:

- unleaded: up to 10%
- E15:  up to 15%
- E85/flex fuel:  15-85%

Total crap shoot what's actually in it

That's interesting. Here in Oklahoma it's required by law to be at least E70, which is all it ever is. 

z31maniac said:

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:

Also, E85 pump doesn't mean that it's E85.  It's "up to" 85%.

Around here we get:

- unleaded: up to 10%
- E15:  up to 15%
- E85/flex fuel:  15-85%

Total crap shoot what's actually in it

That's interesting. Here in Oklahoma it's required by law to be at least E70, which is all it ever is. 

As far as I understood anything labeled "E85" can only be E70+ and have only tested that low and as high as E88 but likely within measurement error. This may very by state law, but it's my take from here in PA. 

Something labeled "flex fuel" from a vehicle perspective will be able to go from E0 all the way to E85 operationally

1SlowVW said:

frenchyd said:

SkinnyG (Forum Supporter) said:

Yeah, but with an Ethanol sensor and an ECU that can use it, the ECU can adjust spark timing based on the amount of E going through it.  If it's 15%, conservative tune, if it's 85%, full tilt boogie, and everything in-between.

And if you're going boost, you really should have an ECU you can tune.

I have a pair of brand new turbo's a V12 plus a  New mega squirt.  I can swap the analog sensors over to junkyard digetals  easily enough. But can't wrap my mind around how it knows to fire 12 cylinders?   

You're over thinking it. The machine is not sentient. All it does is math? It sees values x y and z and grounds a series of circuits accordingly for the amount of time that x y and z equals to. 
All flex fuel sensor is doing is adding one additional variable. 

So the injectors don't squirt fuel in any order?   They just squirt it for a given amount of time?  Is that what batch firing is?   
    I had assumed that the three cylinders in a V12 that were in the intake stage would have the injectors squirt fuel. Then the next three etc. 
  So injectors just squirt based on revolutions? 

Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) said:

z31maniac said:

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:

Also, E85 pump doesn't mean that it's E85.  It's "up to" 85%.

Around here we get:

- unleaded: up to 10%
- E15:  up to 15%
- E85/flex fuel:  15-85%

Total crap shoot what's actually in it

That's interesting. Here in Oklahoma it's required by law to be at least E70, which is all it ever is. 

As far as I understood anything labeled "E85" can only be E70+ and have only tested that low and as high as E88 but likely within measurement error. This may very by state law, but it's my take from here in PA. 

Something labeled "flex fuel" from a vehicle perspective will be able to go from E0 all the way to E85 operationally

53-85% here in Minnesota. 

frenchyd said:

So injectors just squirt based on revolutions? 

It depends, if they are sequential they will fire once per engine cycle and best timing is usually to inject only right before the intake valve opens (and it will do this per cylinder). If not sequential, but you have enough channels they can be staged in a way so that they are timed (semi-sequential) or in full batch where you may inject multiple times per cycle on an open/closed valve in a non timed manner. Some of that depends on the trigger arrangement used. In general for peak power this all matters little, but for driveability, fuel mileage, emissions, sequential timing of fuel is best.