I've had a guy who's talked to me a lot about joining my team to go vintage racing. Now he's got his grandfathers old 450SL that frankly has seen better days.
However he's all excited about racing it. My only experiance is rebuilding the V8 engine for one for a customer, darn about 45 years ago. My only memories is how brutally expensive parts were and how sporadic they came in.
Is that still the same? Are there alternative sources for decent parts that don't cost an arm and a leg?
Are there manual gearboxes available? Or will we have to figure out how to adapt an American gearbox?
Neither he nor I want anything to do with modifying the early EFI those had. So we're planning on adapting a Holley or something. But what sort of power is that V8 capable of? Group 6 in SVRA tell me front running cars are in the low 600 hp range. Is that practical? Or is there another Mercedes V8 we can stuff in there and pretend it's original?
In reply to frenchyd :
I think the engineers who designed it nicknamed it der panzerwagen because it was so heavy. I don't think you could keep it in tires 
If it's like the Jaguar which weighs 4600 pounds it can be lightened to about 2700 pounds once it's stepped down for racing.
But that's a good thought. I'll try to look up its weight.
It's a convertible. It made less than 200 hp when new. It weighs over 3600 lbs and got less than 13 mpg on the EPA rating.
Arms and legs are adding up even before we take into account if it's a Mercedes or not. I think the original purchase price of this car will be a distant memory compared to trying to get 600 hp out of it AND make it safe/aerodynamic AND swap in the gearbox.
No, clearly, it has no 12cyl motor.
Kidding frenchy.
IMO too fat and slow. There are way better cars for the job.
R107s were raced, but the one to go with is the SLC, long wheel base coupe.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
No purchase. Grandpa's giving grandson his old car. I don't know what a shabby, non running car Benz is worth. Probably not all that much.
You've got the weight right 3600 pounds. Well 1585 kg. I wonder how much can be removed in racing condition? 1200 pounds?
Power was only 225 DIN from a 275 cu inch V8 but that's less than 5 horsepower from a 454 rated at SAE net HP. So with an aggressive racing camshaft. A little port work, and pistons that offer more than 8-1 compression, headers. I think 400 horsepower is in reach. That's 2400 pounds(?) hauled around by 400 hp (?) 6 pounds per hp?
My XJS I'm expecting about 2700 pounds hauled around by 425 horsepower. So I'll be around 6.35 pounds per hp. I think with a 350 you have to weigh 3050 pounds in group 6 so 600 hp hauling 3050 slightly over 5 pounds per hp. edit; 2835 pounds.
I'm sure not everyone reaches that 600 number so it might be fun. And interesting.
The first years did have a 4 speed manual gearbox but how strong they are ?
preach (fs) said:
No, clearly, it has no 12cyl motor.
Kidding frenchy.
IMO too fat and slow. There are way better cars for the job.
Yeh but everybody has a belly button. I think it's fun to step outside of the traditional.
The early ones were only 3600 pounds. Eliminate the luxury, quiet , HVAC, windows, interior, could get weight down, probably a lot.
My only concern is prices for parts. Pistons don't care what brand they are. As long as the bore is right and the pin fits. Camshafts can be welded up and ground to something a computer tells you to. Ports can be cleaned up to flow a little better.
If someone offers gaskets, I'm sure the timing Chains can be reasonably sourced. And bearings should be common with something else.
Back in the late 1970s my cousin was racing a Corvette in GT-1. I crewed for him at Brainerd one time, and I recall that Doc Bundy was there that weekend racing a Mercedes 450SL. I just looked online and couldn't find any mention of him in that car, but it may have just been a one race deal or something.
frenchyd said:
I think it's fun to step outside of the traditional.
Well, you got me on that. Much of the reason I am building an Opel.
frenchyd said:
In reply to Keith Tanner :
No purchase. Grandpa's giving grandson his old car.
I understand that. My statement stands. I think the savings from a free car are going to disappear very quickly. You're already talking about custom camshafts and pistons and coming up with a 33% weight savings by waving your hands around.
This sounds more like a Lemons build than SVRA.
And y'all had to show F the pics.....me thinks it's already sitting in the driveway ......wink
Easier to buy light than make light, but I can dig the lure of racing a tank.
One thing I learned from my ex wife's W210 was that it seemed the whole thing was made of stamped tinfoil in such a brilliant way that the whole thing was supremely rigid. I was impressed. I have a feeling if you started adding lightness, you might have a wet noodle.
Strip it, drop in an LS/T56 and have fun.
Just make it a DeAtley SCCA Trans-Am 450SL
and as they say in certain parts of this great nation....'Bob's your uncle'.....DO IT!!!!
There's one guy on Peachparts who tracks/drifts one. However, it's a SLC (coupe) and he bought it with the manual transmission already swapped in. It's more "Lemons" than "SVRA" imo: http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/mercedes-benz-performance-paddock/379765-1978-450slc-super-beater-lemons-race-car.html
Mercedes rallied one in the 1970's. They used automatic transmissions. I don't remember what they used for engines, but I believe it was a 5.0 version of the same V8 that is in the car now.
Also check out Carobu Engineering, they did some development work on the later 560 engine. They didn't get 400 hp:
http://www.carobu.com/560enginedevelopment
A friend of mine races this, albeit a 560. It's got near perfect 50/50 weight balance, 227hp and mercedes parts-bin brake upgrades. Getting enough rubber on the ground took him some work.
Keith Tanner said:
frenchyd said:
In reply to Keith Tanner :
No purchase. Grandpa's giving grandson his old car.
I understand that. My statement stands. I think the savings from a free car are going to disappear very quickly. You're already talking about custom camshafts and pistons and coming up with a 33% weight savings by waving your hands around.
This sounds more like a Lemons build than SVRA.
Custom camshafts? Or regrinding a stock welded up camshaft? Not custom pistons either. I don't know what bore He'll be working with but a few hours with The piston data in Summit racing will find something that can work. And only 8 are required. It might be from a Nissan, Fiat, or whatever.
Losing weight is cheap and relatively easy. We've got less than 20 hours getting my car down to 3000 pounds from 4600 pounds. Granted the last 300 pounds will probably take another 20 maybe even 30 hours. But it's not monumental work.
To be fair, I'm 73, over weight and working 12 hour days. While he's a lot younger than I am.
Finally, some Lemons/Champcar and some of the cars I saw at SVRA are not that far apart. Yes there are those that exhibit flawless workmanship in both while hiding it with "patina"
Carefully reading the rules in Champcar you could spend a great deal of money replacing worn parts with new as long as the parts do not offer any speed advantage over original. In short there is no penalty to bringing a carefully rebuilt 1980 or older car and then have 400 points to make it go faster, longer, more efficiently.
buzzboy said:
A friend of mine races this, albeit a 560. It's got near perfect 50/50 weight balance, 227hp and mercedes parts-bin brake upgrades. Getting enough rubber on the ground took him some work.
I read where the newer ones have 300 DIN horsepower out of 5 liters. Probably a good car for Lemons/Champcar. Does it have an automatic or manual gearbox?
In reply to Rocambolesque :
Thank you. Nice package of information. 389 horsepower is commendable. Especially since this is apparently is intended for the street and not racing.
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:
Easier to buy light than make light, but I can dig the lure of racing a tank.
One thing I learned from my ex wife's W210 was that it seemed the whole thing was made of stamped tinfoil in such a brilliant way that the whole thing was supremely rigid. I was impressed. I have a feeling if you started adding lightness, you might have a wet noodle.
Strip it, drop in an LS/T56 and have fun.
Easier to buy than to build? Absolutely. The issue is cost. If Mercedes built a nice light chassis ( which they would have had to in order to keep the weight down under 3600 pounds) then strip the luxury and upholstery, bumpers, and sound deadening. Plus the big weight savings HVAC, glass, top. Etc. it will be plenty light. No need to unfold any of the sheet metal.
I'm not sure where you could race a Mercedes with a LS/T56. Not in Vintage racing for sure. Nor in LeMons or ChampCar.
It would be an adventure in $ to get 400hp out of the 4.5 m117. Even the 5.6 m117. That engine came in 4.5, 5.0, and 5.6 options. If I were to swap another Mercedes v8 it would probably be a m113 or the m119 before it. But still, these cars aren't really built for racing and aren't swap friendly. I think the sbf 302 goes on easier than other Mercedes engines.
The slc is a cool looking car though.
Those cars were heavy, flexible tanks, with no sporting DNA whatsoever.
I would love to have one, but for weekend cruises while wearing stringback gloves.
If you want "slow" though, I had a customer with a gray market 280SL. He brought it with him when he immigrated from, IIRC, Hungary, and this was before the gray market door had been slammed shut. Inline six, Federalized with feedback fuel control from, apparently, some Volvo. Thoroughly worn out, too. It made me deeply appreciate Mercedes-Benz's decision to only export V8 models to the US. Those were merely slow, even for the time.
Find a shop to acid dip the body. The under coating alone is many pounds the poor car doesn't need to drag along on a race track.
In reply to yupididit :
Thanks. I assume it would be like every other engine respond to higher compression, more cam lift and duration, clean up ports, and give it enough timing.
Yes I understand the devil is in the details but that's why I use my performance trends computer program.
Racing trades low RPM grunt for high RPM power. It's sooo much better than the old, " Here, try this, no this, no that! I used to do back in the 60's- 70's - until I finally got the computer.
I'll pass on your recommendation but SVRA adds weight for increased engine size. Plus we need to figure how to put carbs on it, otherwise he's got to run in Group 10 or 12 which puts him up against cars as modern as 2017.
