Miata HLA Question

Maybe run some Sea Foam in the oil, then change the oil and put synthetic back in?

Once mine started, they never stopped.

My lifters clattered really badly and I tried the miata.net ATF flush with no improvement. I really didn't really want to do the full teardown and clean but reluctantly gave in. Now I get just a little noise for a second or 2 on cold startup.

My race motor (1.6 L) had no lifter noise and had 164K on it !

Kendall_Jones wrote: One of the Spec miata cheats was to plug the oil squirters. This apparently ran the pistons hotter (and leaner), but also supplied more oil to the HLA to keep them pumped up... Kendall

So I'm assuming this is illegal according to the rulebook? Is it bad/harder on the motor?

Nothing wrong with caring for a car, djhives. Lifter clatter is a symptom of the lifters not making correct contact with the cam, and it will lead to excessive wear. It's a sign of a problem. It might be a short-lived problem from old or overheated oil, but it's still not right. Otherwise you'd never have to check the valve clearances on motors with solid lifters. If it is really short-lived, you can ignore it. In fact, none of my HLA cars make noise after hard use on the track or the autocross course - interesting. I'd never really thought about that. They do all run good synthetic oil.

As for removing the oil squirters, I did that on the Targa Miata's engine. That thing has very high oil pressure, and I don't think it's ever clattered - even after running 30 non-stop on a high speed track with me trying to rev the nuts off it. That engine's been through very heavy use.

I do know that HLAs will start making noise with too much oil pressure as well as too little.

My 1998 Miata had the same tick, we switched to Rotella T and it fixed the problem.

Ran a little cooler too FWIW

While there is a distinctive vibe to the miata.net forum that is not to everyones taste, it is an excellent resource for information. As with everything on the internet you have to read critically and not expect that one person's opinion and experience will directly translate to your situation. Abraham Lincoln wrote "YMMV" and has been widely quoted for this reason.

It was actually Javelin's video from another thread on here that convinced me to dig deeper and do the full clean on the HLAs and I found that 3-4 were very sticky and 2 that appeared to be completely seized. I wouldn't make this the first step in addressing noisy HLAs, there are quite a few less labor intensive steps before going that route.

I don't know much about miata engines, but over the years I've found that when I have had that type of issue after high rpm use, it's usually due to oil starvation in the upper part of the engine, either due to insufficient oil pressure or oil moving to one side of the pan and starving the pump. Running the engine with the oil overfilled about 1/2 quart solves the latter problem, and a hp oil pump usually solves the first.

Stock 1.6 + heavy autocrossing + oil filled to the full mark = 3 collapsed lifters for me. And yes, good oil, and fresh. Of course, I also don't know how much it was abused in the 160K miles before I bought it...

If you are tracking or autocrossing a Miata, I highly recommend that you change the oil often with a quality product and keep it overfull. New or rebuilt lifters will fix the problem if you already have it like I did.

FlightService wrote: My 1998 Miata had the same tick, we switched to Rotella T and it fixed the problem. Ran a little cooler too FWIW

I don't know what sort of magic particles are in that stuff, but Rotella T6 cured my S2000's slight TCT rattle as well.

Josh wrote:

FlightService wrote: My 1998 Miata had the same tick, we switched to Rotella T and it fixed the problem. Ran a little cooler too FWIW

I don't know what sort of magic particles are in that stuff, but Rotella T6 cured my S2000's slight TCT rattle as well.

It's called ZDDP, otherwise known as "zinc", and was in oil since the dawn of time. The newer API certifications have required less and less zinc in oils so that they meet emissions crap, which is absolute death to older engines, especially with flat-tappets. That's why there's high-zinc VR1 Racing Oil (no API Certification) in my Javelin and 944. Rotella (and other actual HD diesel oils) still contain high concentrations of ZDDP, and so they help the engines.

Back in the old days, when the lifters got noisy, We gave it the Bardahl treatment. Dump a quart of the engine cleaner in the old oil, run the engine til warmed up. Drain and fill ading one quart of Bardahl. worked miracles on a lot of engines. I'll bet running and engine flush and fresh synthetic oil will cure the problem or at least help.

So if HLA have all these issues with noise why uses them? What is the advantage over solid lifters?

^I'd think the big one is maintenance.

No need for constant valve lash checks when the hydraulics take up the slack.

They can also be handy when installing hotter cams. Drop in and go. Of course, said hotter cams will also decrease the lifespan of the HLAs.

The BP in my Escort has a clattering HLA or two. REALLY bad when i first start it, but goes away by the time it hits operating temperature.

Replacing them isn't that bad of a job, either.

The ability to swap cams easily is one reason I ran them in the Targa Miata engine. They take a different lobe design than solid lifters though.

I don't think the loss of ZDDP has anything to do with the HLA noise in Miatas. They've had it since day one. I think the biggest problem these days is that all 1990 Miata are over 20 years old, and their lifters may not be performing as originally designed. I also recall something about an early TSB that involved increasing oil supply to the lifters to cut down on the rattle.

Manufacturers still stick with them - the LS engines have HLAs.

To clarify, it's frustrating because it will not go away completely. This is not just ticking on warm-up or ticking after thrashing, it ticks constantly. It's a bit annoying, I can get funny looks, and I've been kicking around the idea of selling this car since I don't track it anymore. Even though I'm not too personally worried about the noise, it might hurt sale to a potential buyer.

I'm thinking rebuilding or replacing lifters might be necessary. It sounds like I don't need to replace all of them, just find the couple that are bad and do those, right?

Not trying to take this off topic, but I'm looking for a Miata at the moment...

My understanding is that you need to find out which lifters are the noisy ones and swap those only, although I think it might be prudent to at least clean all of them while you're in there. It would be annoying if the noise came back three weeks later because you didn't clean out a lifter.

In reply to Javelin:

What ever they do it's tasty!!!

Wait I am still on the rum page?

Rotella T is tasty too!!! Awesome stuff.

Yes, you only need to replace the noisy ones. They'll have a slight gap between the lifter and the cam.

Keith wrote: Yes, you only need to replace the noisy ones. They'll have a slight gap between the lifter and the cam.

Is that something I only need to remove the valve cover to measure? I'd prefer to not have to disassemble the timing belt and cams just to get a diagnosis. Although, I suppose it would be kind of silly to try to measure the lifter gap without the cam in place.

BoxheadTim wrote: Not trying to take this off topic, but I'm looking for a Miata at the moment...

Well, you're in NV and I'm in Sac, CA, so it might not be too far of a drive for you. PM me if you'd like more details on my car.

Salanis wrote:

BoxheadTim wrote: Not trying to take this off topic, but I'm looking for a Miata at the moment...

Well, you're in NV and I'm in Sac, CA, so it might not be too far of a drive for you. PM me if you'd like more details on my car.

It isn't - we've looked at cars in Napa and I'm considering even going down to the Bay Area. I'll PM you in a few minutes.

Salanis wrote:

Keith wrote: Yes, you only need to replace the noisy ones. They'll have a slight gap between the lifter and the cam.

Is that something I only need to remove the valve cover to measure? I'd prefer to not have to disassemble the timing belt and cams just to get a diagnosis. Although, I suppose it would be kind of silly to try to measure the lifter gap without the cam in place.

Yup. Mazda Miata Performance Projects has the specs, but basically you're looking for the ones with a little bit of space. You'll want to measure when the valves are closed, of course. Kinda like setting the lash on my old Land Rover.

Well, I just so happen to have that book... somewhere...