Miata NA suspension options

I know, I know, it's been asked a thousand times before...

Over the winter, my NA will have to get new suspension - it's mostly DD'd with some track use, hopefully more track use next year than this year. I replaced the clapped out NA suspension with used MSM suspension. That one survived two PDXs before I was riding around the track on bump stops. It's still OK on the street but its motorsport life is over.

For daily use, I want a fairly compliant ride - the roads around here aren't bad, the ones in CA a lot worse and apart from the local track that is "only" 70 miles away, all the other tracks are 200+ miles away one way. I don't want to arrive there feeling like a well flattened steak, plus my wife doesn't really appreciate a bone jarring ride either. We're both getting old .

For the track, I obviously want well controlled suspension that'll survive the rigors of the track for a while and doesn't beat up the occupants of the car too much.

My tracked Miatas (well, Eunos Roadsters) in the UK had either NA-specific Gaz coilovers (ok ride, never used the height adjustability, adjusted well enough between track and road) or KYB AGX (hated those, and no, I didn't put them on the car but bought the car with them).

So far I'm thinking about the following options - in all cases I'd be looking at upgrading the sway bars independent of the choice of shocks & springs.

• Yellow NA Konis with NA stock springs, better bump stops and maybe the NA top mounts for the rear to improve travel. That should give me a compliant ride and I can stiffen up the damping for the track. I've had an FD with yellow Konis and stock springs, liked it on the road but no idea what it was like on the track - too scared too take in on the track .
• Something like the FM Stage 1.5 kit (well, actually the 2.5 kit to get the sway bars as well).
• FM's V-Maxx Xtreme Sports package. People seem to like the shocks, they're adjustable but I'm not sure that I'll gain much from coilovers over regular shocks/springs - ride height would probably get set once and then left alone, maybe the car would get corner weighted but again, that should be more or less a one time setting.
• Sod it, get the Öhlins coilovers for the car and be done with it. I haven't got much experience with Öhlins on cars (only on bikes), plus they leave a crater about three times the depth compared to the V-Maxx. Not sure I'm getting enough out of the additional investment.

We're talking a car with a stock engine here, I'm contemplating a VVT swap but no force induction.

The other thing to keep in mind is that we might replace the car sometime next year with an RX8 or S2k, depending on how things are going and which other cars are waving white flags. While I'm happy to throw some money at the Miata, it should be fairly proportional to the value of the vehicle (so $3k suspension on a $4k Miata might not be what I want).

Thoughts? Comments? Sod off to a Miata forum ?

Check out Fat Cat Motorsports. They seem to have a good balance between track and street driving from what I read. Not sure if they are better than what FM has to offer.

A big change in harshness will be replacing the factory bump stops with something else.

I used to run Koni yellows with a stock suspension and a big RB front bar. The standard E-Stock Miata setup. Not great on the track, ok on the street. Now I run 450/300 GC coil overs on top of the Konis, with some standard GC (I think?) short bump stops and the fancy purple FM top hats in back. Surprisingly comfortable on the street, as long as there aren't pot holes, expansion cracks, etc.

I know others don't like the Konis, but I have no issue with them. Since you seem amenable, why not start with those on stock springs, some new bump stops, and think about GC sleeves if that doesn't work? You can play around with different spring rates pretty cheap...

Not sure I'd go with the VMaxx extreme for a mostly street car. I've got the non-adjustables (softer rates) and with the R888s it's a bit of rough ride, but not intolerable. Also keep in mind you're going to need some stiffening for those rates.

I've got the butterfly brace and roll bar, and we are getting ready to install the Frog Arms because I can still feel/hear the front of the car flexing a bit. Contemplating the RB control arm brace, but I'll see how it goes at the next HPDE in a few weeks with the Frog Arms.

My car is a nice weather driver/HPDE toy. Pics of body roll with my setup can be seen here:

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/my-first-trackday-pics/55385/page1/

In the future, once a 99+ motor is in the car with 15x9 and 225/45 Rcomps I suspect I'll go with one of the big 3 for suspension.

FCM Elite, FM Affco, or 949Racing XIDA coilovers.

I loved the FM2.5 kit on my street/track Miata. I was able to turn back of the pack SM times at Waterford on street tires with it and it was still fairly comfortable for commuting.

I'm using the FM stage 2.5 setup on my NA, as well as Energy urethane bushings everywhere and the FM chassis rail + butterfly reinforcements. The car handles very well, and while it's firm, it's not punishing. The FM kit's Tokicos aren't ride height adjustable, but I found it to be a nice compromise height. I do have to watch bigger speed bumps though.

I'm odd here in that I do a load of track time, but not in a Miata. So I'm very confident it would be fun at the limits - and I routinely explore the grip limits of the NA's 205-50/15 Direzza Star Specs in slower corners. Also, I'n sure the bushings had a major affect on the general solidity and reduction of slop vs. the used-up 20 year old rubber they replaced. Doing every last busing on a Miata is a big job, but if you really want a car that's predictable at grip limits, bushings and bearings should be on the docket same time as the new dampers/springs and bars.

^Agreed, I did poly throughout and fresh hubs/bearings front and rear as well with the FM sways and a proper alignment.

I have Ground Control coilovers with 440/250 springs on Bilstein HD's with FCM bumpstops and upper mounts, and I like it a lot. It's not exactly super comfy, but I have no problems with it. Of course, I'm also not old

I've already polybushed the rear suspension and I'm going to do the fronts when I next work on the suspension. Frame rails/butterfly brace are also on the shopping list, plus I've got a roll bar already. Just need to find the time to install the bar.

FCM stuff is very well regarded on the forums, but I'm pretty comfortable in how our options stack up based on what I've driven. Shaikh and I obviously have some different opinions on what correct damping is, and I think my preferred setups work better at speeds above 40 mph and on rougher surfaces.

The Koni/stock spring setup is a mild street setup or a hot stock class autox setup. It's what I put on my dad's Miata a decade ago, a car that is used for tooling around town and a long road trip once in a while. Poor thing probably hasn't seen 5000 rpm since the last time I drove it. I think the reason it works well for stock autox is because you can crank up the rebound and the car will jack itself down, effectively lowering the car in a class where lowering is not allowed.

Ohlins give a wonderful low-speed ride, but they're too short. You can feel them check the body of the car over crests when you're out of the city. Compared to longer travel setups, I think they also give up a lot of stability under hard braking. One of those setups that feels great on a test drive but doesn't stand up to the scrutiny of hard use. I tested them on the Targa Miata before going to the AFCOs.

Between the two FM options you listed, I'd probably go with the FM springs/Tokico shocks of the Stage 1.5 or 2.5 kit. That'll give you the most suspension travel of all the kits you identified, both in the compression direction and overall. It's composed on track but comfortable to drive on the street as CGLockracer found. It's what I have on my 1990 with the swapped-in MSM motor and we still use it as a benchmark for ride quality when testing suspensions.

The V-Maxx XXtreme Sports have the same spring rates as the non-adjustable V-Maxx. They're firmer than the FM springs (about 20%) and I think the Tokicos have slightly better damping. Not that the V-Maxx are bad, but one of them has to be better than the other. Both the FM kits come with appropriate bumpstops - again, Shaikh and I disagree on length and stiffness, I prefer a setup with a more gradual transition.

Z31, if you're feeling front flex, go with the Frog Arms instead of the RB brace. The latter is mostly designed to deal with a problem with NB front sway bar mounts, not a massive gain for NA cars.

Don't confuse "rough" with "good". Rough also means you're having trouble keeping your tires in proper contact with the ground...

Boxhead,

I am going to stock class autocross next year, so my current setup will be going up for sale.

FCM coilovers 500/325 spring rates, under 3k miles(maybe under 2k). No winters, and only used in the rain if it rained at an event

PM me for details if interested

Keith Tanner wrote: Z31, if you're feeling front flex, go with the Frog Arms instead of the RB brace. The latter is mostly designed to deal with a problem with NB front sway bar mounts, not a massive gain for NA cars.

They are sitting next to the couch waiting to go on.

I thoughtt he RB brace tied together the rear lower control arm mounting points? How does this help with the sway bar?

Definitely don't want to spend $100 if it's not needed, but I know there is more time in the car and more cornering speed.

PM sent about your FCM stuff. I may be interested as well we will see depending on timing. I am trying to drive the car as stock as I can for a bit to learn it.

While I have no doubt Keith and the guys have done an awesome job especially if you can go with the AFCO's locally I have seen some great FCM setups that also ride really nice. I want to keep mine tolerable for the wife as its going to stay weekend toy/autox car more than it sees HPDE

It might sound kind of dumb but I would probably choose based on what I wanted to do most

AutoX = Fat Cat Motorsports because thats what I know Shaikh has done a ton of work with and guys at the National level have won with his stuff

Targa/Hillclimb = Flyin Miata AFCO because again I know Keith has done it

HPDE/Track Day = 949 Racing Xidas because those guys are tearing up time trials and racing racing racing

Jaynen,

I agree with different horses for different courses. Keep in mind that any given setup has compromises, but that doesn't mean you can't do a track day with AFCOs, etc

You can certainly do a track day with AFCOs - and be fast. The ability to eat up pavement imperfections means you can be a lot more aggressive with things like berms. As one instructor said after riding with me, "the track's wider for this car". The car's also a lot more difficult to get upset, such as hard braking on a decreasing radius off-camber corner with one pair of wheels on the rumble strip - that's a test we do with our local track and the AFCOs really shine. Basically, travel is good.

It's a shame that the AFCOs only get identified with Targa, because they're really quick on track. We're not physically located in a place where we can take part in series like the California endurance scene, and that's hurting us. Still, AFCOs have taken three Runoff championships in a Miata, so that tells you something.

z31, my bad. For some reason, I read that you were looking at the RB sway bar brace. I really like their front subframe brace and the rear subframe brace is a decent idea - but one that was improved upon by Skip Cannon when he designed the Cannon brace about 15 years ago. The biggest difference is materials, the folded sheetmetal of the RB rear brace doesn't work as well as the 1/4" aluminum of the Cannon.

Ah don't take my opinion the wrong way. I think all of those setups are probably great and it's more like choosing between three great options than one is better than another

Keith Tanner wrote: z31, my bad. For some reason, I read that you were looking at the RB sway bar brace. I really like their front subframe brace and the rear subframe brace is a decent idea - but one that was improved upon by Skip Cannon when he designed the Cannon brace about 15 years ago. The biggest difference is materials, the folded sheetmetal of the RB rear brace doesn't work as well as the 1/4" aluminum of the Cannon.

Would you say these are worth purchasing?

Sorry for taking over your thread Tim!

I'd call both of the subframe braces worth purchasing. I've got the RB front brace on one of my 1990s and Cannon braces on the rear of both.

z31maniac wrote:

Keith Tanner wrote: z31, my bad. For some reason, I read that you were looking at the RB sway bar brace. I really like their front subframe brace and the rear subframe brace is a decent idea - but one that was improved upon by Skip Cannon when he designed the Cannon brace about 15 years ago. The biggest difference is materials, the folded sheetmetal of the RB rear brace doesn't work as well as the 1/4" aluminum of the Cannon.

Would you say these are worth purchasing? Sorry for taking over your thread Tim!

That's OK, I'm busy taking notes .

One of my big current indecision points is that we're still thinking about consolidating the "fleet", which would mean that we'll replace three cars ('vette, Miata and 325ix) with two, so I do want to keep this at a reasonable budget.

OTOH if the AFCO coilovers are so much better than, say, the FM 2.5 suspension kit, I'd consider them and see what else I can do to keep the Miata longer...

As to the local track, it has a reputation of being a bit bumpy (I'm used to bumpier tracks though) and whatever suspension I bolt onto the Miata must be able to deal with California potholes. If it stands up to year-round driving, albeit with little salt on the road, that's even better.

^Ask Keith, my local track (Hallett) isn't what anyone would consider smooth and the VMaxx non-adj/FM Sway setup handled it pretty well.

Tim, for your use, the AFCOs are probably overkill. The 2.5 setup is a good, easy-to-use option for a street/light track car. It's pretty popular in California.

I was hoping to get to Hallett with an AFCO car this fall, but Bill played the boss card so he got to go. I like rougher tracks, they're more interesting. I've driven the V-Maxx there and they do well on it.

I feel the same way Tim and will build my car for rougher surfaces

I have the VMAXX setup with the NB tophats on my DD Miata and it's quite comfortable. I'm also quite competitive in STS autox class and, if I had a full roll cage, could be quite competitive at the hillclimbs as well.

The missus has never once complained about the ride quality even over long journeys. I think they're a great budget suspension option. I've put nearly 10k miles on mine since new and they feel exactly the same.

I'm running Bilstein HD with 450/350 springs and MSM bumstops and NB hats. The roads where I live are far from ideal, but on the smoother roads, it feels fine.

ptmeyer84 wrote: Check out Fat Cat Motorsports. They seem to have a good balance between track and street driving from what I read. Not sure if they are better than what FM has to offer.

If you do go FCM make sure you call and get a time when the parts will be ready and give extra time if they are not done on schedule. I waited 4 months or so for my parts that were supposed to be shipped in 2-3 weeks with little or no communication on progress.