pinchvalve wrote:Adrian_Thompson wrote: If you accept say $100k as the starting point for upper middle...Not around here! That's entry level middle class at best. Without kids and a reasonable house, a used exotic might be doable, but with the standard McMansion and 2.4 children, no way.
I think I made that point if you read the rest of the sentance.
racerdave600 wrote: .......... fot the same amount of money a 308 would cost, i'd much rather have say a brz or miata and and hang a supercharger on it. same performance and less headaches,.........
Here you go, the best of both worlds, the 'image' of an exotic Lamboghini with the running costs of a Solstice!!!
OK, sorry for the flounder, this has been and can continue to be a good thread, I just couldn't resist.
eastsidemav wrote: I'd say any Ferrari, even a Magnum PI 308 is an exotic, and those should be in reach of the middle class. As others have stated, its all about priorities. I couldn't afford to buy a 30K used Ferrari with cash, but some might, and others might be willing to do a HELOC
Don't ever buy a car with a HELOC.
Woody wrote:eastsidemav wrote: I'd say any Ferrari, even a Magnum PI 308 is an exotic, and those should be in reach of the middle class. As others have stated, its all about priorities. I couldn't afford to buy a 30K used Ferrari with cash, but some might, and others might be willing to do a HELOCDon't ever buy a car with a HELOC.
I never would, heck, if its not a daily drifver, I won't finance it in any way. I also know I am not most people.
/threadjack
Find someone from the upper middle class to pay the depreciation for you and then shop carefully.
In December.
Woody wrote: Don't ever buy a car with a HELOC.
HELOC's are for New Harley's. Duh.
Woody wrote:eastsidemav wrote: I'd say any Ferrari, even a Magnum PI 308 is an exotic, and those should be in reach of the middle class. As others have stated, its all about priorities. I couldn't afford to buy a 30K used Ferrari with cash, but some might, and others might be willing to do a HELOCDon't ever buy a car with a HELOC.
Why not? I got a regular loan on the C30, paid it off with the HELOC, paid lower interest and offset the interest against tax. All paid off, no problem, happy chap.
Part of me wants to toss up my general spending habits, my monthly gross, and my retirement / tax /etc costs. Lay out all the ins and outs of my financial situation. But then I'm afraid it'd turn into a dick waiving contest or some other thing and there could be hurt feelings. So, uh, I dunno about that.
I do know between rent, 401(k) that I'm throwing everything I can at, and other costs, I run around a zero sum budget with not a whole lot in my savings account. I can't imagine dealing with, say, a Ferrari 328 on this budget. About as exotic as it gets is my Mustang, and since I bought cheap there, I get to spend now & later instead. And I make what I consider to be a pretty good salary for a midwest city, with no spouse or children to help me spend money.
pres589 wrote: Part of me wants to toss up my general spending habits, my monthly gross, and my retirement / tax /etc costs. Lay out all the ins and outs of my financial situation. But then I'm afraid it'd turn into a dick waiving contest or some other thing and there could be hurt feelings. So, uh, I dunno about that.
I would never ever post that info on an open forum for so many reasons. I have in the past discussed mortgage and car costs as a % of take home though.
Adrian_Thompson wrote: Why not? I got a regular loan on the C30, paid it off with the HELOC, paid lower interest and offset the interest against tax. All paid off, no problem, happy chap.
The problem is that if anything goes wrong, you've just turned the loan that was secured on the car into a loan that's secured on your house. Personally, I'd rather deal with the repo man than a foreclosure...
In most cases, if you shop around there is not much to be gained by using a HELOC for most car purchases anyway as rates on HELOCs seem to be fairly close to rates on car loans from credit unions anyway.
Woody wrote:eastsidemav wrote: I'd say any Ferrari, even a Magnum PI 308 is an exotic, and those should be in reach of the middle class. As others have stated, its all about priorities. I couldn't afford to buy a 30K used Ferrari with cash, but some might, and others might be willing to do a HELOCDon't ever buy a car with a HELOC.
Or a 401(k) loan.
In reply to Adrian_Thompson:
Yeah, I know. It's just hard to get a good picture of how all this works for other people. I'd like hints / tips / some better idea of a good roadmap but it could lead to trouble.
back to the what's an exotic/what's middle class.
I've seen lots of guys rolling around on 60-70k trucks and suv's. If that same group wanted to they could have gotten a used exotic.
BoxheadTim wrote:Woody wrote:Or a 401(k) loan.eastsidemav wrote: I'd say any Ferrari, even a Magnum PI 308 is an exotic, and those should be in reach of the middle class. As others have stated, its all about priorities. I couldn't afford to buy a 30K used Ferrari with cash, but some might, and others might be willing to do a HELOCDon't ever buy a car with a HELOC.
That one's for sure, you pay tax on it and the penalty, that's plain stupid. I still stand behind the HELOC though if you are sure of your current situation. Done it before, will do it again
I'm probably the worst example when it comes to % of take home pay alloted to vehicle costs. As pointed out, some folks choose to spend extra money on clothes, golf/other hobbie, trips, or a second home. My passion is in cars. My significant other also can't understand why I have 9,232 car magazine subscriptions, but then I also don't understand the 12,434 comic books (though, I sorta do get it).
I keep telling my dad to get something to toy around with. Not necessarily anything he would need to work on, but just an extra toy. They finally bought their dream second home up in Cape Cod, and I feel like he needs to keep a summer car there, even if it's a beater Wrangler or something. I'm even debating giving him my 944 so they can use it there in the summer. He never had a second car or any toy like a boat, etc. He chose to drive Hondas till they either got passed along to one of us kids, or disintegrated into the NJ soil. I think most of their "extra" income went into us 5 kids. I think he deserves something as a thank you for his 70th.
....but I don't think that something will be an exotic car 
I'm 38, have been working as an engineer for the last 13 years, have no kids (yet)- and have owned my DeLorean (which I think it is fair to call an 'exotic') for about 3 years now. It all depends on how badly you want your chosen exotic and how much work you're willing to put into one that needs a lot of work if you want to get it on the cheap.
(it also helps that in my case, they cost a lot less to purchase and parts are far more readily available than most people expect)
pinchvalve wrote:Adrian_Thompson wrote: If you accept say $100k as the starting point for upper middle...Not around here! That's entry level middle class at best. Without kids and a reasonable house, a used exotic might be doable, but with the standard McMansion and 2.4 children, no way.
No, $100k is upper middle class no matter where you live in the US. If you live in an area that makes it difficult to live on that does not mean you suddenly earn less than average or something. The median household income is $50k. $100k/year puts you in the top 20% of households. Doesn't matter where you live.
I think $100k a year puts you in the top 10%.
I sort of agree with pinchvalve. I do understand that, nationally, 100k is middle class, but if you look at things from a local perspective in comparison to others, it may not be the case. 100k in NYC/Brooklyn is basically enough for a single person to live a relatively comfortable existence, in a very small rented apartment, with some money into savings. It would never support a family, let alone an additional car or cars. Honestly, I have no idea how folks around here afford to live the way they do with the costs of housing, schools, commute, food, etc. I think secretely everyone around here makes like 300k and I'm the only one not in on it.
BoxheadTim wrote: In most cases, if you shop around there is not much to be gained by using a HELOC for most car purchases anyway as rates on HELOCs seem to be fairly close to rates on car loans from credit unions anyway.
The only reason I mentioned HELOCs is they will likely have a lower interest rate than trying to get a loan on a 1980's exotic. Sure, you'd likely have the same rate on a newer car, but once it gets past a certain age, you probably couldn't get a loan secured by the car without a major downpayment and a high rate.
I guess I could - I've had some borderline exotics. If I decided that road racing wasn't important and shifted funds that go to truck, trailer, car and equipment to just a single car I could swing an Exige/Cayman straight up or something more with a loan but... and this is going to sound odd... they aren't interesting to me in and of themselves. They are just nice cars.
I don't really like to acquire stuff just to have it here. I like to do things with stuff and the less I care about the stuff - the more I'm willing to do with it. If I drop $90k on something I seriously berkeleying care what happens to it and that ruins the fun. I'm perfectly happy to make old tin tops go silly fast and then break them. It probably costs me Ferrari money in the end anyway but ... I'll remember rubbing fenders going down the chute at Summit fondly and shrug off a bumpy ride thru the infield when it does not go my way. Imagine the horror of doing that in a 360 Challenge car.
Put me in the probably could but won't anyway camp.
Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: Put me in the probably could but won't anyway camp.
I'm in this camp as well I guess. I could easily afford it, but I don't want to. I'd rather watch my $ earn more $ in the bank/invested than depreciate in the form of a nice car I'm too afraid to race or park in public places.
Except maybe a Lotus. When the time is right, I could see myself snagging one. Right now I have other things on my mind :)
I think Adrian is right. There are so many variables when considering what is " Middle Class" that you can't put a $ figure on it. I would say that if you put 15% of your income into retirement have medical dental home owners/renters and car insurance, and can put 5-10% of you income in savings you are "Middle Class". As far as what is a Exotic I would say that more important that how much the car cost new, hwo made it, and how many of them there are out there wold be how that car makes you feel. I once had a 1983 944, I felt like a million bucks when I drove that car. The only people that thought it was cool where 10 year olds and McDonalds employees but I was a new dad how worked full time and went to school full time, so driving that car on back roads was good for the soul.
That said hear is what I would do, find a DB7 with a blown motor, drop in a LS2 with a 6 speed and call it a day. 95% of people would consider the DB7 an exotic and that is about as good as it is going to get for 30k. It would be classy fast and a lot cheaper to feed that any Ferrari. The DB7 is more of a GT car than a sports car but you should be able to find one with a blown motor for 10-15k that would leave 15-20k for the swap. n reply to Adrian_Thompson:
Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: I guess I could - I've had some borderline exotics. If I decided that road racing wasn't important and shifted funds that go to truck, trailer, car and equipment to just a single car I could swing an Exige/Cayman straight up or something more with a loan but... and this is going to sound odd... they aren't interesting to me in and of themselves. They are just nice cars. I don't really like to acquire stuff just to have it here. I like to do things with stuff and the less I care about the stuff - the more I'm willing to do with it. If I drop $90k on something I seriously berkeleying care what happens to it and that ruins the fun. I'm perfectly happy to make old tin tops go silly fast and then break them. It probably costs me Ferrari money in the end anyway but ... I'll remember rubbing fenders going down the chute at Summit fondly and shrug off a bumpy ride thru the infield when it does not go my way. Imagine the horror of doing that in a 360 Challenge car. Put me in the probably could but won't anyway camp.
^Me too^
We're DINKs, the wife an I. We're doing pretty alright in salaries, and did one life-changer real estate deal. In 2000 we bought a cheap, falling-down house in one of the most expensive zip codes in the country, Bethesda MD, 20816. We DIY renovated for a decade or so, and when the market picked back up, we bought our dream (project) house in 20815, and sold #1 for 2.4 times what we'd bought it for.
So, offered a cheap Radical I went road racing. I'm 4 rounds into my 3rd season w/ 4 wins, and the fully rebuilt car is awesome fun to drive. As someone who, as a 5 year old wanted to be Jimmy Clark more than anyone else, this is life fulfillment stuff. I'll never, ever forget the first time I finished unloading the truck and trailer by bringing in my trophies.
I still have an e36 M3 track car, my '62 Sprite, an NA Miata, a 525iT DD, and a Tacoma for trailer pulling and dump runs. Plus a KTM supermoto, an RD400 and a 50cc scooter.
If I sold it all and bought a financed Focus ST for driving, I could swing payments on an exotic.
But would it be as much fun? I doubt it.
I'm with Snorklewacker and Motomoron. I may not have as much money wrapped up in racing as they do but what racing I do is definitely more rewarding to me than having a nicer car. I could afford to do both but I choose instead to save for a less stressful financial existence.
Regarding the HELOC, I would hope that anyone buying an exotic wouldn't be at risk of going bankrupt. But then I would also hope that they wouldn't need to borrow money to do it, so I would still say not to use a HELOC because you should be paying cash for your toys.
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