last I checked 150k was right at the top 10% mark.
last I checked 150k was right at the top 10% mark.
icaneat50eggs wrote: last I checked 150k was right at the top 10% mark.
I agree, I've seen that before, and personally I'd think that the top 10% is upper upper middle class so I still stay with $100k as a reasonable level to call upper middle. According to the infallible Wikipedia $100K is the top 79%. Sound good to me.
Just checked Wiki and $150k is the 91percentile
To those saying how satisfying racing is compared to owning a road car. I lean the other way. My one season of road racing was a disaster and beyond the satisfaction of saying 'I have raced' and ticked it off my bucket list, I don't have great memories of it, although I did develop a strong friendship with Tom Spangler as we suffered together. I’d much rather have a sports car or semi exotic to drive on the road and do the occasional track day. Right now, the only way I will go racing again is if I suddenly become not just independently wealthy, but independently wealthy with room to spare.
Note, my personal definition of independently wealthy is $$’s invested equal to or greater than 30 times the amount you consider a comfortable pretax annual income. So if you consider $100K pre-tax a reasonable annual standard of living, then $3m will allow you to ‘pay’ yourself 3% more a year while not ever touching your principle.
You can compare income with national mean, median, or average, but it's meaningless without factoring the local cost of living.
If we lived in Memphis (Cost of Living Index: 83.7) on what we earn, we'd be stinking filthy rich.
Instead, we live in Chevy Chase MD, (Cost of Living Index 130.5) and we're fairly well below the middle.
Adrian_Thompson wrote: Note, my personal definition of independently wealthy is $$’s invested equal to or greater than 30 times the amount you consider a comfortable pretax annual income. So if you consider $100K pre-tax a reasonable annual standard of living, then $3m will allow you to ‘pay’ yourself 3% more a year while not ever touching your principle.
This math works to my plan. I've always said I need 5.5M in the bank to retire and I should reach that goal in the summer of 2177 assuming status quo.
motomoron wrote: You can compare income with national mean, median, or average, but it's meaningless without factoring the local cost of living. If we lived in Memphis (Cost of Living Index: 83.7) on what we earn, we'd be stinking filthy rich. Instead, we live in Chevy Chase MD, (Cost of Living Index 130.5) and we're fairly well below the middle.
Not sure I totaly agree, I see your point, but what does your profession pay in those other areas. You still have an upper middleclass income if your over $100k, even if that income is harder to live on.
Financing is part of the question I feel. It's easier to get a new 50k SUV financed over a 20 year old Ferrari of the same value.
Does anyone even finance older vehicles? I found a mint '99 E36 M3 not long ago that I fell in love with and it was out of my cash range, but more than reasonable for a short term finance. I was going to finance it over a year, but couldn't find anyone that would go "that old".
redhookfern wrote: Does anyone even finance older vehicles? I found a mint '99 E36 M3 not long ago that I fell in love with and it was out of my cash range, but more than reasonable for a short term finance. I was going to finance it over a year, but couldn't find anyone that would go "that old".
HELOC
Yeah, that's basically what I figured...
Adrian_Thompson wrote:redhookfern wrote: Does anyone even finance older vehicles? I found a mint '99 E36 M3 not long ago that I fell in love with and it was out of my cash range, but more than reasonable for a short term finance. I was going to finance it over a year, but couldn't find anyone that would go "that old".HELOC
motomoron wrote: You can compare income with national mean, median, or average, but it's meaningless without factoring the local cost of living. If we lived in Memphis (Cost of Living Index: 83.7) on what we earn, we'd be stinking filthy rich. Instead, we live in Chevy Chase MD, (Cost of Living Index 130.5) and we're fairly well below the middle.
So you live in a rich person's neighborhood. I bet there's plenty of reasonable cost housing within a reasonable commute. Housing is more expensive there, okay, so why does choosing to live in an expensive neighborhood make you less rich?
I could buy a house literally three blocks from mine for over a million dollars. That would make me feel very poor but I would still in fact not be poor, well, except that I wasted all my money and then some on an expensive house. ;-) I'm sure you would need to drive more than 3 blocks to find lower cost housing but that doesn't mean you can't live well on $100k a year relatively near where you work.
If you're living there due to schools, again that's a choice and you're choosing a quality education at a monetary cost. Having no money left since you sent your kids to Harvard doesn't mean you're not upper middle class, it means you spent the money on schooling.
In reply to redhookfern:
Yes - it's called a personal (unsecured) line of credit. I have one and have used it from time to time. However, I've had it for years and from what my bank (BoA) told me, it's not a product they really offer anymore. I have prety good credit, so they let me keep it. YMMV. It's not quite as easy to use as a credit card or soem HELOCs, but the interest rate is much better than a credit card(although I still pay it off as quickly as possible - like in under a year).
The "financing limit" seems to be why most cars drop in value a lot after a certain age.
I could buy a more exotic car and liquidate my current stable, but I like variety!
Adrian_Thompson wrote: To those saying how satisfying racing is compared to owning a road car. I lean the other way. My one season of road racing was a disaster and beyond the satisfaction of saying 'I have raced' and ticked it off my bucket list, I don't have great memories of it, although I did develop a strong friendship with Tom Spangler as we suffered together. I’d much rather have a sports car or semi exotic to drive on the road and do the occasional track day. Right now, the only way I will go racing again is if I suddenly become not just independently wealthy, but independently wealthy with room to spare.
I'm here with you on this. I don't think I'd trade having the 'D for racing of any kind- it's just entirely too much fun to take out and drive, and I love the reactions people have to seeing it. The GF loves it too, it makes her feel special to be out driving in it and getting the attention along with it. I have lots of fun conversations with people both out on the street in general and at car shows- and kids' reactions to it, much like my own when I first encountered one as a child 30 years ago, make it worthwhile all over again.
motomoron wrote: You can compare income with national mean, median, or average, but it's meaningless without factoring the local cost of living. If we lived in Memphis (Cost of Living Index: 83.7) on what we earn, we'd be stinking filthy rich. Instead, we live in Chevy Chase MD, (Cost of Living Index 130.5) and we're fairly well below the middle.
We were watching some Discovery Channel home shopping show last weekend. People were getting shown 3000 square foot homes with nice fixtures with an asking price of less than $250k. My wife and I were laughing out loud. In parts of the country you need to double, triple and nearly quadruple that money.
Tell me again how income is the only factor. Anyone ever go to McDonald's in NYC? Price that out versus Topeka.
I bought a 01 Boxster 3 years ago and drove it to my hometown to attend a funeral. I was stopped at a stop sign and a kid on a bicycle rode up and said.." Did you win the lottery?" I didn't have the heart to tell him I paid less for the Porsche than a used Accord. Yea, it costs a hundred bucks to do an oil change and cv boot jobs cost 1200, but on a quiet back road with the top down...joy !!
wjones wrote: We were watching some Discovery Channel home shopping show last weekend. People were getting shown 3000 square foot homes with nice fixtures with an asking price of less than $250k. My wife and I were laughing out loud. In parts of the country you need to double, triple and nearly quadruple that money. Tell me again how income is the only factor. Anyone ever go to McDonald's in NYC? Price that out versus Topeka.
Amen. My wife loves watching a show on HGTV called "House Hunters"...and yes I sit and watch it with her. The Atlanta area comes to mind. We've seen several shows where the house is huge, on a nice plot in a suburban community, and the price is $210k. I keep telling her we need to cash out up here in PA and go get a mansion down there.
I don't think the truly exotic cars that can be had on a limited budget (meaning normal working person) offer the kind of driving rewards that justify meeting the challenge of getting and maintaining them in the first place.
As much as I appreciate cars, I just have the suspicion that driving an 80's exotic might be totally underwhelming or even annoying.
Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: This math works to my plan. I've always said I need 5.5M in the bank to retire and I should reach that goal in the summer of 2177 assuming status quo.
Well played, sir! I was just starting to think "Look at Mr Richy-Rich bragging about his retirement plan" when I took a closer look at the date. Well played indeed.
redhookfern wrote: Does anyone even finance older vehicles? I found a mint '99 E36 M3 not long ago that I fell in love with and it was out of my cash range, but more than reasonable for a short term finance. I was going to finance it over a year, but couldn't find anyone that would go "that old".
IIRC PenFed does. Reasonably easy to join even if you're non-military.
Just googled addordable exotics out of interest. #1 hit was a list from Hemmings.
BMW 850i - Hell no
Lamborghini Urraco P300 - I'm close to giveing them this one.
Mercedes-Benz 560 SEC - Not even close.
Porsche 944 Turbo - Great car, but again not even close to exotic
Renault-Alpine A310 - Rare, unusual, Galic charm, fun, cool, lot's of adjectives, but exotic nope noperooney
Ferrari 400 - Close, cheaper to buy into than a 308 which I don't consider exotic, but the V12 gives it GT status at least.
Jensen Interceptor III - Not even remotely close to exotic.
Lotus Esprit Turbo SE - Budget super car maybe just about, not really exotic
Acura NSX - Ditto
Porsche 928 S/S2 - Gentelmans express, entry leval GT
Maserati Indy - Close like a 308
Bentley Mulsanne - A 928 for those with taste and class, still not exotic
So I don't really consider any of these exotic, although some are close. But I guess these are the sort of cars we're talking about in the thread.
I have learned from this thread that there are a lot of definitions for both "middle-class" and "exotic."
AutoXR wrote: I could buy a more exotic car and liquidate my current stable, but I like variety!
This exactly. I've thought about thinning the heard and getting something crazy, but I guess I'm more of a mid level buffet guy than a dedicated fine dining guy.
In reply to Adrian_Thompson:
Most of them are probably exotic over here (with the possible exception of the 560 SEC) but I guess they aren't that exotic when you grew up in Europe.
Although I wouldn't mind an A310 either way.
I bought a Lotus Esprit S4s when I stopped racing my SpecRX7. Even the lowly SRX7 was just too much time and money for the amount of fun I got out of it. I burned out quickly.
The Esprit wasn't any worse of a money pit than a crappy old RX7 + old pickup + old trailer + racing expenses. Eventually, I paid the Esprit off, saved some more money, and got a 996 GT3, which ultimately became a 2001 Ferrari 360.
A lot of it is about priorities. My 2nd car when I had the Esprit was a Subaru Justy (3 cylinders, no AC), followed by a 200k mile E28. By the time I got the GT3, I had upgraded to a 180k mile E34 Touring which now has nearly 240k miles on it (anyone have OEM rear springs? my self-leveling died...). I supplemented that with a 120k mile Jaguar XJR. Point being - I drove a lot of cheap stuff and did it cheaply so I could afford One Really Nice Thing. Many friends who oogle my cars are not willing to do anything like that.
Anyway, if you accept that you'll need a pillow to sit on for weeks after every parts purchase, a manual transmission 360 is a pretty decent car and prices for good drivers start in the low 60s. It's foibles are well known and addressable and it's not impossible to work on, though very time consuming. Honestly, I'm not having the most satisfying ownership experience with it right now, a simple clutch release bearing leak having become a friggin' saga after just this once I decided to pay someone to work on the car, but it's still a childhood dream realized and I look forward to every drive.
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