fGingerbeardman said:
STM317 said:
In reply to Gingerbeardman :
How is offering a new option in a free market even close to forcing you "into the brave new world"?
Nobody is forcing anybody to buy a new vehicle at all, and if you choose to do that, nobody is forcing you to buy an electric one, especially if it's not viable for you.
I don't get why EVs are always so polarizing for people. Not all those who like EVs are liberal elites soy boys that live on the coasts, and not all EV detractors are coal rolling rubes from the middle of nowhere. They're a relatively new technology, and like any technology there are benefits and drawbacks. All any of us can do is inform ourselves about the benefits and drawbacks, assess how well they might work for our specific situation, and make purchasing decisions accordingly.
If you have to tow a ton of weight all the time, an EV isn't currently the best option. If you drive hundreds of miles per day, an EV isn't currently the best option. If you can't charge at home, an EV isn't currently the best option. The reality is that most people don't tow tons of weight all the time. Most people drive under 50 miles per day. Most people have access to charging where they live, or at least could have it installed without much effort. The current crop of EVs is enough for most people. With more time and money the products will continue to improve and the number of cases where they're not viable will shrink. They may never be the right tool for every job, but that doesn't make them bad or threatening. More choice only benefits consumers.
The consumer options aren't forcing me/us, it's the "mandatory" requirements for the "enviro" and safety-nanny tech, which is backdooring more autonomous tech and forcing electric down our throats. Not sure if you've noticed, but you and I don't get to vote on this crap and we're not funding lobbyists to write these bills...that would be the corporations doing that.
EV's aren't new at all...the first vehicles were electric. Battery tech has gotten better, but it's still not even 75% of what ICE can do. I'm not married to any specific technology or platform, but I'm damned sure not going to give up my ability to get around because a bunch of Left Coast or East Coast urbanites are forcing a non-solution on me.
And that is the major crux for me, the teeming masses in the cities think they know what's best for the entire country, while they live in teeming E36 M3holes filled with corruption, broken infrastructure and dying industries. If they know so much, they'd be ahead of the curve, not limping along swapping interchangeable cogs.
You're making some mighty big claims there about EV fitting the majority of folks needs...I disagree, yet somehow because of my rural viewpoint and requirements, I'm the one who's wrong. The person making the claim bears the brunt of proving the assertion. I can back my points up with facts, data and opinion. 
C'mon man. One of my primary points in the post you quoted was that EVs are not a black and white thing. If you're going to be upset about "teeming masses in the cities" stereotyping you as some rube that just lives in "flyover country", then it's pretty hypocritical for you to adopt the exact same us vs them mindset about them. The us vs them categorization is just intellectually lazy. You seem like a pretty intelligent person. You should be able to do better than lumping everybody into 1 of 2 categories. I'm pretty certain that I don't fit your mental image of me. I'm not one of the teeming masses. I'm not trying to dictate what you can/can't do. I'm a glorified diesel mechanic in rural Indiana. I'm one of the more consistent Tesla critics/skeptics on this board, but I'm not going to bury my head in the sand and say that there's no merit to the EV tech, or that it won't already work for most people. My neighbor down the road is on his 2nd Model S, and my Fusion PHEV has become the best vehicle I've owned.
If you want me to show my work on my claims that a current EV will work for most people, I'm happy to do that:
How much range do most people need?
The government says that the average American drives about 13,500 miles per year. So with some basic division, we find that the Average American drives 37 miles per day. So by definition of "average", we know that half of Americans that drive, drive less than that amount.
We can even break it down by state and see that the average driver in Wyoming drives more than any other state @ 21,800 miles per year. That's nearly 3 thousand miles per year more than the next closest (GA). Again, we do some basic math and find that works out to be 60 miles per day.
If you say, "Yeah, but most of our driving happens on weekdays getting to/from work, so we need more range on those days" we can do that math too. 365 days-104 weekend days = 261 weekdays in a year (Ignoring holidays for now). That works out to 52 miles per day for the average American and 83.5 miles per day for the average Wyoming driver if no driving is done on weekends.
Obviously, the 600k residents in WY drive far more than average. They represent 0.18% of the total population in the US, and drive nearly double the average American. That's a statistical outlier, not meant to dehumanize anybody, but it's a reality. That's not how most Americans live. If you're driving hundreds of miles per day, you're way above average, even for your sparsely populated state, making you an outlier even within the outlier that is Wyoming.
Now you're going to say, "but what about loss of range when it gets cold smarty pants?". That's a valid concern for sure. First, I'd say that ICE vehicles aren't immune to range decreases in cold temps either, often seeing 12-20% drops in range.
Then I'd follow up with the fact that It's not uncommon to see 20% decreases in range with EVs. Even 40% drops in range aren't unheard of in colder temps. If you want to be safe and have a little extra cushion (and why wouldn't you) you would probably buy an EV with a range double your daily needs. So the Average American who might use 50-ish miles of range on a weekday would want an EV with about 120 mile range, and the average person in WY would probably want something in the 200 mile range.
What options are available in the market that meet those needs?
Hyundai Ioniq EV has a 125 mile range, starting MSRP of $30k, and is eligible for the full $7500 federal tax credit
Nissan Leaf has a 150 mile range, starting MSRP of $30k and a partial tax credit.
VW E-Golf has a 123 mile range, starting msrp of $32k, and is eligible for the full tax credit.
The average new vehicle price is over $37k these days, so any of those options would provide enough range for most people, and also be a fair bit cheaper than the average new vehicle to buy. That's long before any tax credits or reduced operating costs are considered.
If you want more range the Hyundai Kona EV has a 258 mile range, MSRP of $37k, and is eligible for the full tax credit.
The Kia Niro EV has a 239 mile range, starts under 40k before the tax credit.
The Chevy Bolt has a 259 mile range and starts at $37k (no longer eligible for the full credit, but patial credit of $1875 still available)
So all of these vehicles (not including any from everybody's favorite controversial automaker) are essentially average priced or lower, and have enough range to accommodate the average person, even in cold temps. And again, half the drivers in the country drive less than the average that I'm basing these calculations on, and still more don't have to deal with frigid temps at all.
But what about charging them?
The department of energy says that 63% of housing units have a garage or carport. That obviously doesn't mean there's 240V there, but it means they have a consistent place to park where a charger could be installed (compared to a street parking free for all). If you can afford a new car, you can probably afford <$1k for a new 240V outlet install. Heck, you don't even need a garage. There's a member here that installed his charger on the outside of his house and charges his car in his driveway.
So again, EVs are not perfect for everybody, everywhere. But they are already good enough that they can work for most people in most places, and the number of options are only going to continue to grow. I find it interesting that many of the "teeming masses" that you rail against in densely populated cities would actually make pretty poor candidates for EV ownership since car ownership in general is limited in those areas, and those that do own rarely have anything but street parking and would therefore be stuck with only the more expensive public charging options. The number of edge cases that cannot use EVs continues to decrease as capabilities increase. Will EVs ever satisfy every edge case and eliminate ICEs? No, of course not! There are cases where diesel makes more sense than gasoline, and vice versa. Just as diesel and gasoline can comingle in this world, why can't electrons? Ask yourself, how would your feelings change if diesels were incentivized the same way that EVs currently are? Would you still feel like people were forcing something that won't work for you down your throat? Why does the "fuel" used to move the vehicle down the road matter? Is there actually an issue here, or is it just new and different than what we're used to?
